Emotiva RMC-1 AV Processor Review

[amirm]

It's only encrypted on the HDMI "wire" using HDCP. Whatever (internally) comes out of the HDMI interface chips isn't encrypted anymore. Audio streams on S/PDIF aren't encrypted at all. The DSP just plain aren't the right place to deal with encryption..

You are not following the explanation I gave. So let me give you the full overview as my team and myself were party to creation of such content protection systems.

1. HDCP technology comes with a license agreement you must execute before you have access to said streams. Key phrase in there is this:

What this says in English is that if you build a decryption system for HDCP and it gets breached through a fault of yours, then the content owners, not HDCP org, can go after you and sue you for damages including but not limited to shutting down sales of said product.

Furthermore, HDCP can revoke your decryption license to disable your ability to decrypt any content. Their capability is quite limited here though and they yet to invoke this.

2. Robustness rules. Signing the contract obligates you to this provision:

"...Decrypted HDCP content, in a usable form flowing between them [modules in a system] shall be reasonably secure from being intercepted or copied."

Having in the clear bitstream for audio and video falls in this clause and expectation is that you make an effort to not allow these bits to siphon off easy.

The contract is clever (and typical) in that it doesn't tell you how you should secure these subsystems. Only that you need to do so and pass what I say "straight face test." On judgement day when your device is used to extract such content, can you show any effort that you tried to protect it? If not, expect grief.

What I explained is that even though we (Microsoft) had no obligation under HDCP, we still wanted to keep our pipeline secure by encrypting the stream between modules.

Hardware implementations are generally considered harder to breach so there is not as much (practical) requirement to secure the implementation.
On your point regarding DSP, there absolutely are secure processors used in Blu-ray players and such with protection against code modification and other attack vectors to steal the bitstreams.

Finally, on S/PDIF, it has no encryption mechanism. For this reason, HDCP mandates that the format on that output be limited to 16 bits @ 48 kHz sampling max:

So yes, as practical matter, everything inside including the Dolby bitstream is likely unencrypted. I am just responding to the point that this is never done or required.

 

[Zooqu1ko]

You are not following the explanation I gave. So let me give you the full overview as my team and myself were party to creation of such content protection systems.

Thank you for clarifying that. I was even aware of those stipulation, but misread your post anyway.

 

[SKBubba]

You are not following the explanation I gave. So let me give you the full overview as my team and myself were party to creation of such content protection systems.

1. HDCP technology comes with a license agreement you must execute before you have access to said streams. Key phrase in there is this:
View attachment 53748
What this says in English is that if you build a decryption system for HDCP and it gets breached through a fault of yours, then the content owners, not HDCP org, can go after you and sue you for damages including but not limited to shutting down sales of said product.

Furthermore, HDCP can revoke your decryption license to disable your ability to decrypt any content. Their capability is quite limited here though and they yet to invoke this.

2. Robustness rules. Signing the contract obligates you to this provision:
View attachment 53749

"...Decrypted HDCP content, in a usable form flowing between them [modules in a system] shall be reasonably secure from being intercepted or copied."

Having in the clear bitstream for audio and video falls in this clause and expectation is that you make an effort to not allow these bits to siphon off easy.

The contract is clever (and typical) in that it doesn't tell you how you should secure these subsystems. Only that you need to do so and pass what I say "straight face test." On judgement day when your device is used to extract such content, can you show any effort that you tried to protect it? If not, expect grief.

What I explained is that even though we (Microsoft) had no obligation under HDCP, we still wanted to keep our pipeline secure by encrypting the stream between modules.

Hardware implementations are generally considered harder to breach so there is not as much (practical) requirement to secure the implementation.
On your point regarding DSP, there absolutely are secure processors used in Blu-ray players and such with protection against code modification and other attack vectors to steal the bitstreams.

Finally, on S/PDIF, it has no encryption mechanism. For this reason, HDCP mandates that the format on that output be limited to 16 bits @ 48 kHz sampling max:

View attachment 53752

View attachment 53753

So yes, as practical matter, everything inside including the Dolby bitstream is likely unencrypted. I am just responding to the point that this is never done or required.

So does this explain why streaming devices such as Roku and Firestick limit streaming audio to 16/48?

 

[HTNut1975]

The RMC-1 thread but the RMC-1L is the same without expansion slots and the XMC-2 is also part of the family so these are the processors with substantial horsepower.

For XMC-1 owners, Emotiva has an upgrade path with substantial discount.

- Rich

Ok, that is what I was thinking. It just seemed that they were talking past each other (when it comes to licensing). I've been eyeing those units for a while but I started to lose faith that they were going stabilized. After Amir's original testing, I was all but done. I can't express how much Emotiva's response on this forum to the issues have put them back in the running, for me. But as Markus said, above, it is all about the Dirac Live Bass Control feature that I'm looking for in my next unit, and it seemed like maybe Markus was asking why Emotiva doesn't get the license for the XMC-1, and Lonnie was referring to licensing for the XMC-2/RMC units (and when I referred to negotiation process, I was referring to the business side of things--not the technological).

By the way, it is weird to see I only have 3 messages on here. It makes it look like I just joined up. I've actually been a "longer"-time lurker for a little while now, so I feel like I'm more a part of the forum than what the 3 measly messages imply. The whole project surrounding this website is awesome. I almost think of Amir as the Simon Cowell of audio reviewers. When results aren't so good, you will know it--no punches pulled. Good stuff and much appreciated!

 

[TimoJ]

I can't express how much Emotiva's response on this forum to the issues have put them back in the running, for me.

You do understand that it was mostly just spin control? Nothing else than the one DSP register was fixed and nothing has changed in their software release cycle. Other manufacturers already have Dirac BM code and are testing it, while Emotiva talks (or doesn't talk) about licenses and hasn't even released main Dirac software.

 

[HTNut1975]

You do understand that it was mostly just spin control? Nothing else than the one DSP register was fixed and nothing has changed in their software release cycle. Other manufacturers already have Dirac BM code and are testing it, while Emotiva talks (or doesn't talk) about licenses and hasn't even released main Dirac software.

I do know that Monoprice has Dirac implemented and is working on BM. I'm not for sure what you mean by "just spin control." There was a problem that yielded less-than-ideal results. It was fixed and a cordial response was given by Emotiva. There isn't anything nefarious or misleading about that, as far as I can tell.

 

[HSamwel]

You do understand that it was mostly just spin control? Nothing else than the one DSP register was fixed and nothing has changed in their software release cycle. Other manufacturers already have Dirac BM code and are testing it, while Emotiva talks (or doesn't talk) about licenses and hasn't even released main Dirac software.

KeithL just responded to questions about Dirac BMM on the Emo lounge. It’s in the works..
This means either they are in the middle of getting the license or they are actually already working
on the code.
Emotiva has recently put out info that Dirac Live is now working with 16ch in RMC and planned release
is still end of this month.

 

[markus]

KeithL just responded to questions about Dirac BMM on the Emo lounge. It’s in the works..
This means either they are in the middle of getting the license or they are actually already working
on the code.
Emotiva has recently put out info that Dirac Live is now working with 16ch in RMC and planned release
is still end of this month.

The old Emotiva game of promising that "great things are coming" just to keep people from buying (elsewhere). Sales tactics, nothing more. "Upgrade for life", "40% upgrade card", atrocious.

 

[HTNut1975]

The old Emotiva game of promising that "great things are coming" just to keep people from buying (elsewhere). Sales tactics, nothing more. "Upgrade for life", "40% upgrade card", atrocious.

Well... Come on, it is 40 percent!

 

[HTNut1975]

KeithL just responded to questions about Dirac BMM on the Emo lounge. It’s in the works..
This means either they are in the middle of getting the license or they are actually already working
on the code.
Emotiva has recently put out info that Dirac Live is now working with 16ch in RMC and planned release
is still end of this month.

I might bet it'll be closer to end of April, if I wanted to make a little money on this. I have a sneaky suspicion they're more hesitant to release updates now than before, without a more thorough vetting (at least, that's the sense I get).

 

[TimoJ]

I do know that Monoprice has Dirac implemented and is working on BM. I'm not for sure what you mean by "just spin control." There was a problem that yielded less-than-ideal results. It was fixed and a cordial response was given by Emotiva. There isn't anything nefarious or misleading about that, as far as I can tell.

I still remember their first reactions to this review and how the story changed after that... And now they are best buddies, Amir is a part of their beta team and does quality assurance for them.

 

[RichB]

Perhaps, complaints about missing the March 2020 target should wait until April 2020

- Rich

 

[DonH56]

My concern would be that Dirac Live is released but buggy, so the return window starts closing but there are still bugs to be ironed out. That said, Emotiva has usually been pretty good about that sort of thing with their customers.

 

[HTNut1975]

I still remember their first reactions to this review and how the story changed after that... And now they are best buddies, Amir is a part of their beta team and does quality assurance for them.

So do I. The characterizations about Emotiva's reaction from some board members, here, and characterizations about Amir's review, from some board members, there, were hyperbolic and inaccurate (just as the description that Amir and Emotiva are now "best buddies" is inaccurate). From what I can tell, there is no change in the story (unless what you mean by "story" includes primarily the inaccurate characterizations of reactions from both sides).

 

[markus]

I still remember their first reactions to this review and how the story changed after that... And now they are best buddies, Amir is a part of their beta team and does quality assurance for them.

"Keep your friends close but your enemies closer"

 

[HSamwel]

The old Emotiva game of promising that "great things are coming" just to keep people from buying (elsewhere). Sales tactics, nothing more. "Upgrade for life", "40% upgrade card", atrocious.

Well, I haven’t been a Emotiva customer for that long to ”remember” failed promises of yesteryears..
I don’t feel like they have promised that much since I bought my RMC-1 (june 2019). They have hoped to
have Dirac ready last year though, and had alot of excuses why they failed. Mostly blaming Dirac for not
delivering the full code and/or working code. Yes, they got it late about june last year, yes it seems the
code had to be recoded alot, especially memory allocation I heard. But..
It felt a little strange, a company only blaming other companies for their own failures. This was a new for me.
Acting a little bit unprofessional IMO.

But is Emotiva the only company to ”promise” what they want to do? I rather have a company telling
me what they want to do and what they are working on than not.
The only thing that’s bad is their time scale.. Everything takes ages. Even minor fixes. Other than the
1.9 ASR fix because that hit them hard.
Although, since I bought my RMC-1 I have had 6 official firmwares and 2 betas. Compared to others
that’s quite alot in less than a year. Not many new features though, mostly catch-up for their bad
stability.
But I have almost never seen or heard these issues myself. The unit has been quite stable for me.
Never had any firmware update issues, never done those crazy steps SOWK writes about.
Just update, restart and use, every time. Never even backed up my settings until I first installed
a beta I got from them.
But it has been slooow.. I have mentioned this alot both to Emotiva and at the Emo lounge, but
most seem happy with the speed now.

The big boys (Denon/Marantz, Yamaha, Onkyo/Pioneer) almost never upgrade their stuff. You get what
you paid for the year you bought it. Next year they mostly add some feature to to make you ”need” to
upgrade. Don’t know if these silent ”promises” are better.
I got pissed of several times when they added a feature I know can be added by firmware but chose
not to just to sell the new year model.

Sorry for my ranting..

 

[HSamwel]

I might bet it'll be closer to end of April, if I wanted to make a little money on this. I have a sneaky suspicion they're more hesitant to release updates now than before, without a more thorough vetting (at least, that's the sense I get).

Yes, especially after the ”fiasco” with 1.7. Promised alot of better stability, beta testing had gone very good.
Then bang, owners having hangs, crashes and other misbehaviours just 24 hours after it was released.
Even for me, the Video Remains On feature (high power mode) was broken. But other than that it actually was
a big improvement for me.

They have almost three weeks.. So we will know by then. But they do most often have a slight delay just before
a release it seems.

 

[TimoJ]

The only thing that’s bad is their time scale.. Everything takes ages. Even minor fixes. Other than the 1.9 ASR fix because that hit them hard. Although, since I bought my RMC-1 I have had 6 official firmwares and 2 betas. Compared to others that’s quite alot in less than a year. Not many new features though, mostly catch-up for their bad stability.

Very slow pace to fix things and looks like it's almost hopeless to ask for changes/tweaks to current features or new features. You may get "we'll look into it" and that's it. Meanwhile, Monoprice with HTP-1 is showing an example how things should be done.

 

[HTNut1975]

Yes, especially after the ”fiasco” with 1.7. Promised alot of better stability, beta testing had gone very good.
Then bang, owners having hangs, crashes and other misbahaviours just 24 hours after it was released.
Even for me, the Video Remains On feature (high power mode) was broken. But other than that it actually was
a big improvement for me.

They have almost three weeks.. So we will know by then. But they do most often have a slight delay just before
a release it seems.

It seems to me that the pace has changed a little with Emotiva and it would not surprise me at all if much of it has to do with Monoprice and Harman entering the picture with Dirac. Something is going on for the better in the last couple of months. I hope that's not just wishful thinking for them, but it sure seems that way.

 

[HSamwel]

Perhaps, complaints about missing the March 2020 target should wait until April 2020

- Rich

Why? It seems bashing Emotiva is the ”thing” to do these days..
That was one thing I noted right after I bought it.. Alot of negative comments from people that never
had owned it or currently owns it. Much more than other brands I have read about.