Emotiva RMC-1 AV Processor Review

[kernelpanic]

It only shows up with 2 channel audio. The reason it didn't show up is the Dolby certs require the up mixer to be tested with a multi-channel input and it does not exhibit the same behavior. It's nice and clean.

Hey Lonnie, just curious, do you think this is an issue with the Dolby upmixer itself? Do they have different versions of the chip? I'm wondering if this could be a widespread issue in many more AVR's/Processors and maybe Dolby needs to be made aware of this?

 

[Lonnie]

Hey Lonnie, just curious, do you think this is an issue with the Dolby upmixer itself? Do they have different versions of the chip? I'm wondering if this could be a widespread issue in many more AVR's/Processors and maybe Dolby needs to be made aware of this?

I honestly can't say. We are using the ADI chips and it is in there, but I can't speak for the TI, NXP or any of the other decoders.

 

[DanLaufman]

Let's put the past behind us folks. I and Emotiva team have done so. Let's look ahead to better collaboration in the future for development of better products.

Well said!

I’m the first to admit that I should have stepped back a minute to fully digest what was going on.

Lesson learned.

I think we’ll all move forward together with a new and improved relationship, and hopefully, friendship.

 

[bootman]

When can we expected the updated results of the collaboration between Emotiva and Amir and the fixes in 1.9?

 

[amirm]

It was posted two pages back.

 

[jam]

When can we expected the updated results of the collaboration between Emotiva and Amir and the fixes in 1.9?

They were posted on Page 46 to be exact.

 

[bootman]

It was posted two pages back.

I found it. Nice work.
However, any new viewers looking at the front page of this thread (where a search will lead them) would never know that some points in your review are now revised since you make no mention of that in the front page.

 

[amirm]

I found it. Nice work.
However, any new viewers looking at the front page of this thread (where a search will lead them) would never know that some points in your review are now revised since you make no mention of that in the front page.

There is notice in the review:

 

[Casey Leedom]

So @amirm, it looks like the RMC-1 is still leaving a bit of Stereo Performance on the table with respect to the basic capabilities of the AK4490 which specifies 123dB S/N in Dual Mono mode. But, chip specifications and what can in fact be implemented are often different. How do you think the Stereo DAC capabilities of the RMC-1 line up with other AK4490 DAC implementations? Because of space limitations I've been looking for a single box which can perform both Stereo Music and Home Theater duties. But maybe I should give up on that and get something like the Matrix Audio Element X and use something like the RMC-1 as a preamplifier in Direct mode ...

Casey

 

[Prana Ferox]

FYI, I spoke to Emotiva folks about an hour. Much better people than I gave them credit for prior to that. They have a tough job to do, integrating a number of black boxes without much leverage on their many technology suppliers.

Is this a function of engineering resources available for a product price point or is it licensing / IP related?

It sounds similar to DAC companies trying to engineer out the 'ESS hump' without being able to see the inner workings. But in the DAC case a company can, at a very different price point, simply create their own DAC. Could an AVR company implement all this processing on a theoretical in-house-programmed FPGA or would they still have to use closed-source Dolby modules?

 

[Zooqu1ko]

It sounds similar to DAC companies trying to engineer out the 'ESS hump' without being able to see the inner workings. But in the DAC case a company can, at a very different price point, simply create their own DAC. Could an AVR company implement all this processing on a theoretical in-house-programmed FPGA or would they still have to use closed-source Dolby modules?

FPGAs would probably be uneconomical. They could just buy DSPs without the libraries and licenses from Dolby, DTS, Auro etc and develop their own decoders. At least for "mass market" devices, that would be feasible, for the high-end, Trinnov apparently uses off-the-shelf PC mainboards manufactured by MSI (e.g. a J1800i in one of their "stereo" products).

 

[apgood]

FPGAs would probably be uneconomical. They could just buy DSPs without the libraries and licenses from Dolby, DTS, Auro etc and develop their own decoders. At least for "mass market" devices, that would be feasible, for the high-end, Trinnov apparently uses off-the-shelf PC mainboards manufactured by MSI (e.g. a J1800i in one of their "stereo" products).

Trinnov uses Intel i7 processors in the Altitude 32 and i3 or i5 (can't remember which) in the Altitude 16. All the decoding is done in software but not sure if they get the decoding code or just the decoding algorithm for Dolby, DTS & Auro.

 

[Bghead8che]

Factoring in the 1.9 firmware, between the RMC-1 and the HTP-1 which one measures better overall? Factoring in THD, SINAD, jitter, etc.? I'm a layman when it comes to reading the tests.

 

[Lonnie]

Is this a function of engineering resources available for a product price point or is it licensing / IP related?

It sounds similar to DAC companies trying to engineer out the 'ESS hump' without being able to see the inner workings. But in the DAC case a company can, at a very different price point, simply create their own DAC. Could an AVR company implement all this processing on a theoretical in-house-programmed FPGA or would they still have to use closed-source Dolby modules?

It is a function of the Dolby and DTS modules that are embedded within the chip. They are nothing more then Black boxes as far as we are concerned and only have access to the handles to do basic controls.

 

[Lonnie]

FPGAs would probably be uneconomical. They could just buy DSPs without the libraries and licenses from Dolby, DTS, Auro etc and develop their own decoders. At least for "mass market" devices, that would be feasible, for the high-end, Trinnov apparently uses off-the-shelf PC mainboards manufactured by MSI (e.g. a J1800i in one of their "stereo" products).

That is not really an option and here is why. Both the Dolby and DTS streams are encrypted. You can't decode them without using their respective algorithms.

 

[Lonnie]

Trinnov uses Intel i7 processors in the Altitude 32 and i3 or i5 (can't remember which) in the Altitude 16. All the decoding is done in software but not sure if they get the decoding code or just the decoding algorithm for Dolby, DTS & Auro.

They are licensed just like we are. What they get is basically the same, its code that they don't have access too.

 

[Zooqu1ko]

That is not really an option and here is why. Both the Dolby and DTS streams are encrypted. You can't decode them without using their respective algorithms.

Neither Dolby nor DTS streams are encrypted. They use a non-trivial binary format, but there's no encryption or even obfuscation involved at all. You do indeed need to use their patented algorithms, and for commercial product, getting their license and passing their compliance tests is probably more than just a good idea. If you want to verify that there's no encryption, check e.g. https://code.videolan.org/videolan/libdca

They[Trinnov] are licensed just like we are. What they get is basically the same, its code that they don't have access to.

I believe they have a license more akin to what Analog Devices or Texas Instruments have, i.e. they probably have the bitstream specification and sample source code from Dolby and DTS and use the full theoretical channel count and location, not just the limited and mostly fixed speaker configurations that AD or TI support in their code. AD and TI have put in the work to make the decoders run efficiently on "cheap" DSPs, at the cost of only allowing a limited set of parameters, and as a result, can be "easily" integrated in to new products.

It is a function of the Dolby and DTS modules that are embedded within the chip.

Not sure which DSP you're actually using, but in most cases, the code is stored on external flash and loaded into the internal RAM when the DSP boots, but I suppose since you get the DSP, the flash and the decoder libraries as a bundle, there's not much of a difference. But since you're posting here: Do you get the black box binary you use from Dolby or from the manufacturer of the DSP, and who provides support if it's not working as intended? Who is responsible for the code that decides if the bitstream currently received is PCM or a flavor of Dolby or DTS?

 

[Xulonn]

Neither Dolby nor DTS streams are encrypted.

I thought the post was about the processing code being encrypted, not the streams passing through...who said the streams were encrypted - and why wold they be? (Edit: @doodlebro corrected me on this below...edited below to delete false assumptions.)

@Lonnie Vaughn, is a V.P./CTO of Emotiva Audio Corporation - perhaps he can respond.

And If you work in the industry, you should identify yourself as such - or are you just a knowledgeable software guy?

 

[doodlebro]

...who said the streams were encrypted - and why wold they be?

Both the Dolby and DTS streams are encrypted.

...?

 

[Xulonn]

...?

Interesting - I missed that. Thanks @doodlebro .

Perhaps @Lonnie can explain where in the process the data streams are encrypted and decrypted.