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Embracing Simplicity in Audio: Anyone Else Skipping Room Correction, Measurement Microphones, and the Like?

"Your quote:
But perhaps it's not necessary - you can clearly see the pitfalls.

Just to go into this briefly again. This statement referred to the fact that the video is 8 years old and new DRC products came to the market meanwhile.

Are 'pitfalls' all you got out of that video?"

No, I think it's a good overview. If you don't agree with something in it, you have to address the author.
 
Seeing the word "perfect" put me to mind of some advice I share with students in the grad level biotech course I (still) teach.
The context is biotechnology process development, but I find these "laws" to be broadly applicable and good things to keep in mind. :)
(and, yeah... I know I've posted this before)

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The photo shows Dr. Scoble (who was by far the best boss I ever had) giving a "window tour" of our quite spiffy manufacturing facility for the then Lt. Governor of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. I like the image because I would consider the two individuals to be a study in opposites in almost every possible way. ;)
Sort of like objectivists and subjectivists, perhaps? :cool:
 
"Your quote:


Just to go into this briefly again. This statement referred to the fact that the video is 8 years old and new DRC products came to the market meanwhile.



No, I think it's a good overview. If you don't agree with something in it, you have to address the author.
I just find it odd how you summarize posts presented to you.

And your continue here. No disagreements with the author from me by the way, yet you seem to imply there is a disagreement, and just leave it hanging.
 
Well, the 'advantage' of this discussion seems to be that it's forcing me to enhance my English just so I can grasp and counter all those cunning nuances. How thrilling.
I posted links to Klippel earlier, but seems it left no impression on you. They are German. The best part is the important bits are pictorial format!
 
If I read him correctly, he's saying the "target curve" business is a problem. Different rooms will give a different "target" when a flat measuring speaker is used.

But as I and other here keep repeating: the EQ we are talking about here is not to do crazy reshaping to correct the speaker, it's to target room modes at low frequencies.

Also implied is that you can eq the speaker itself using an anechoic measurement. Imagine how convenient it would be if there was a database with these measurement and eq suggestions.

 
I always enjoy listening to such lectures by recognized experts in their field. This one is really great. I already knew it. As it's already 8 years old, Floyd unfortunately can't go into the latest technical solutions that are offered today. But perhaps it's not necessary - you can clearly see the pitfalls.

View attachment 330636
Unknown speakers, which may be bad speakers.

My interpretation, which may be wrong, of what Floyd Toole means is that perfection (really good sound, I guess that is what Floyd Toole means) cannot be achieved via EQ with mediocre or even bad speakers. There is a limit to what you can EQ. For example, on and off axes may, or may not, enable sensible EQ.

Note, an interpretation, or rather speculation, on my part. Floyd Toole writes on ASR sometimes, who knows he might clarify what he means? :)

Edit:
A quick search on Floyd Toole and EQ brings up quite a few results. So maybe the answer is already here at ASR?
Screenshot_2023-11-30_184553.jpg

 
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Returning to the OP, as opposed to the kind of ill-organized war on EQ that this thread has become,

That seems a tad histrionic. The technical benefits made possible by room EQ have been acknowledged, though some haven't always preferred what they heard and/or have chosen not to pursue it. That doesn't constitute a "war on EQ" and I don't see this approach being pushed on anyone else, as "war" would imply.

I have an even more simple assertion:



Simplicity, defined as fewer components or a lack of digital processing, is orthagonal to audible fidelity or even audible sound improvement.

EDIT with suggestion and corrected spelling (ack):

Simplicity, defined as fewer components, a lack of digital processing, or any recent listener experiences messing about with microphones, is orthoganal to audible fidelity or even audible sound improvement.

Given your use of the term "orthagonal" I infer you are saying that simplicity as you define it is irrelevant to audible fidelity or audible improvement. In other words,
"simplicity" doesn't tell you the fidelity or audio quality is going to be better or worse, so as a concept it's a red herring in audiophile terms. Is that correct?

It seems to me there has been disagreement about that, since many in this thread have proposed the necessity of digital processing - in the form of room correction - in achieving higher fidelity and better sound. In which case it wouldn't be orthogonal.

As to your second formulation, that seems aimed at those eschewing room EQ etc, I don't see how you can make that claim. Because you've included user experiences with, I presume, experimenting with measuring/room EQ. (Don't know what else you mean by "recent listener experience messing about with microphones.")

In which case, I don't see how you are in a position to declare someone did or didn't hear an "audible improvement" between the more corrected vs less room corrected response? That's up to the listener's goals and taste.

I heard a difference between room corrected sound and uncorrected. But "better or worse?" That's up to me thank you very much. :)

Let's take a possible other example: I have a small stand mounted monitor in my room, which is performing in a generally neutral fashion - maybe I've even applied room correction. And it's helped to remain neutral because it only goes down to, say, 60Hz so it's not exciting the lower room nodes like a larger speaker might in the room.

Now I replace it with a large floor standing speaker that goes down to 30Hz or below. No room correction at all is applied.

I put on some thrumming deep bass electronica, some of my favourite music. Will it sound better? To me, you bet! It will now have the depth, impact, richness that will make for a much more compelling presentation of that music. I put on some new prog rock. Will it sound "better?" You bet. Now the bass drum/bass and everything has the scale and impact that benefits such music. I listen to an orchestral spectacular, say the soundtrack to Star Trek the motion picture which I love.
On the small "neutral" monitors it's a tiny presentation, a toy version. I play it on my larger floor standing speakers and now it's much larger in scale, the sound much richer and deeper and more impactful...the kettle drums roll across the floor and envelop me more like a real concert. Is the bass response perfect, free of any bulges or nodes? No. But then, neither would most live sound, including the sound of a real symphony - there are room excitations that are part of the aural experience. So even though the uncorrected larger speaker presentation isn't technically perfect, I..and I'm sure many others...would deem it an audible improvement in terms of the sonic experience it's giving me, the listener.

Hence, I just can't see how your attempt at stating such a rule can really hold...except perhaps as a statement of your own preferences :)
 
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Oh, some people really seem to have a blast nitpicking every word. Clearly, that was the intended purpose of this thread. ;)
You write so much. And much of it is counter to the goal of ASR. And you seem surprised. How about going to my woodworker's guild, and making a similar statement as in this thread. "Anyone skipping measurements?"
Many links have been posted here to try to help you understand why a measurement is important, and how DSP is and incredibly useful tool. The biggest problem, you didn't seem to read them. Perhaps if you took the time, rather than doubling down on your defense, you wouldn't feel like it was nitpicking.
Well, the 'advantage' of this discussion seems to be that it's forcing me to enhance my English just so I can grasp and counter all those cunning nuances. How thrilling.
I don't write nuanced. I am very direct. Too much at times. I posted many links, some by scientists who speak and publish content in your native language. It does seem you ignored them. Is that nuance?
 
It’s been said that no one has mentioned perfection , but what certainly has been mentioned is ‘accurate’ and ‘inaccurate’.

If a measured and DRC applied system is considered ‘accurate’ playback - then said system could be expected to reproduce the recorded content at the listening spot with perfection, otherwise how can it be claimed to be ‘accurate’?

Since it is not actually perfect in reality because it’s impossible to achieve that, maybe it shouldn’t be touted as accurate either. Where are the boundaries on what is accurate and inaccurate? Is there a defined measurement and criteria for the required in room response to be accurate? Perfection is not possible, so how is it accurate? Is close enough to flat considered accurate? I’d say close enough isn’t good enough to be labelled high fidelity.

If electronics measured only ‘close enough’ that would not be considered high fidelity. So how is a ‘close enough’ room response high fidelity? It isn’t.

Should we really be saying that a measured and so called ‘corrected’ system is in reality - inaccurate playback and actually it isn’t true fidelity at all? It may be less inaccurate than an uncorrected system, but it’s still not accurate to the source material.

There‘s been a lot of elitism in this thread and when you really break it down nobody has truly accurate playback in a room.
 
The microphone can capture all of the sound with far more detail than the human ear and the data can be plotted on a graph. I can not remember seeing any study that plots audibility along side of the microphone data, certainly, virtually none with ASR data. There still is some faith required to move from the microphones "golden ears" to ones own. DSP can not guaranty audible perfection.
 
much of it is counter to the goal of ASR.
Do you think so?
I have received 22 likes for my opening post to date. Was that so far-fetched? But I realise that we don't get on particularly well. As the gentleman saying in this case I think: Let's agree to disagree. Maybe we can shorten the discussion with that.
 
Do you think so?
I have received 22 likes for my opening post to date. Was that so far-fetched? But I realise that we don't get on particularly well. As the gentleman saying in this case I think: Let's agree to disagree. Maybe we can shorten the discussion with that.
I do think so.
Likes are an echo.
I am not about getting along, or not. I have tried to be helpful with how you get along with various members, you may or may not recall. But that is beside the point. I point out factual inaccuracies to many members who I 'get along' with. And, I have been called on my own inaccuracies and gaps in understanding from members who I get along with, but happen to know information I do not.
I don't agree to disagree on physics though. And even if I did, it will certainly not shorten anything.
 
It’s been said that no one has mentioned perfection , but what certainly has been mentioned is ‘accurate’ and ‘inaccurate’.
...
If electronics measured only ‘close enough’ that would not be considered high fidelity. So how is a ‘close enough’ room response high fidelity? It isn’t.
Should we really be saying that a measured and so called ‘corrected’ system is in reality - inaccurate playback and actually it isn’t true fidelity at all? It may be less inaccurate than an uncorrected system, but it’s still not accurate to the source material.
...
Since we are discussing audio, I would contend that "completely 100% accurate" ideally is synonymous with "perfection" as far as signal reproduction goes. But since complete accuracy and perfection is probably neither achievable or measurable, we would need to standardize an acceptable margin of deviation that is acceptable to achieve "HiFi perfection". But as we all know, there is no accepted IEEE (or otherwise) standard that defines "HiFi" and the accuracy required to the original signal to use the term.

And that's the fundamental disconnect in HiFi discussions... for some, a pleasant 10% deviation from the recorded signal is the best HiFi, while some want to milk the last 0.01% of the accuracy envelope. And the twain ("good enough" vs "the eternal quest for even more accuracy") shall never meet. :)
 
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Reading, having an interest and understanding measured data seems to lead to some sort zealotry about tweeking one's gear with DSP and the correct way to do it, or not for some around here. The OP was asking if some just have an interest and don't do that and that seems to light a fire under some on both sides of the fence.
It is a good question whether you invest your time and money or are just an observer.
 
Do you think so?
I have received 22 likes for my opening post to date. Was that so far-fetched? But I realise that we don't get on particularly well. As the gentleman saying in this case I think: Let's agree to disagree. Maybe we can shorten the discussion with that.
But I don't understand the problem if you say in your initial post:

I've been hesitant to transform my regular home listening environment into an acoustic laboratory with heavy computer usage or reliance on proprietary DSP products. Call me old-fashioned, but I value the simplicity of my setup.
But then don't transform your listening room into an acoustic laboratory.:)

At the same time you should, of course, not question those who want to transform their listening room into an acoustic laboratory, whatever that means.
(not because you did, as far as I know, but as a general debating technique)

Seriously, I don't understand this antagonism, which seems to pop up in the thread. It's just a hobby after all. Some want good sound, others think it's fun with stuff that looks cool and so on. No right, no wrong.:)
 
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I have received 22 likes for my opening post to date.
Regarding likes:
My dumbest post ever got more than 22 likes.:facepalm:
I recently posted links to MiniDSP's latest DSP enabled 8 channel DAC. I got 20 likes. Does this mean you win the popularity contest? If I flooded that thread with my own posts, do you think it would boost the like count? How about if I selected a title that is controversial?
If I cared about like-count, I would post in the humor thread, which I instead avoid.
 
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