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Electrostatic speakers?

I suspect you have either heard poor diffusers, diffusers that were placed too close to the listening position or a combination of these two.

If multiple diffusers are used, one needs to follow the barker sequency to avoid periodicty and lobing. In a control room they should be placed so they the diffused energy arrives 2-5 ms after the intial time delay of the recording room. And certainly not be used if the distance to the rear wall is short.

Correct use of diffusion of high quality doesn't sound like you describe. I have yet to hear anyone prefer absorption over diffusion in the rear of the room with sufficient distance. They are still used a lot in control rooms. Today they are also improved with smaller wells that function higher in frequency and with a diffuser like the Modffractal, the barker code is built into the units.
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Lateral diffusion is achieved with the diffusers sending energy via rear walls before it reaches the listener. Diffusion sent from corners directly to ears can also arrive in an angle that is very audible and similar to lateral energy. The width of the room isn't sufficient to support the 2-5 ms intial time daly gap for a control room, but certianly something that can be done at home.

Absorption in the rear of the room is IMO only the right treatment if distance to that wall is very close, and as you point out only a smaller area needs to be treated with it. Diffusion or hybrid (semi diffusion of higher frequencies and absorption of lower frequencies) is generally preferable with more distance. Without the added spaciousness from phase grating diffusion, stereo tends to lack the developing experience shoe size concert halls have.
We are discussing something fundamental in control room design, and as I see it, there is no agreement on how best to do it. The "recommendations" in circulation cover the range from totally diffusive to very dead and reflection controlled. Section 3.5 in the 4th edition discusses some of this. Then there are the near-field users who appear to be increasing in number, in which case they hear direct sound and the room matters little. Cost is minimized for home studios and showplace control rooms are fading in number I am told. "Opinions" obviously exist to support all different designs, and these are "professional" users so their opinions count. We hope the their hearing is intact, because one indicator of hearing problems is a desire to simplify the sound field.

The diffusers in my example problem control room were early RPG units, so not the best or the worst. However, the principal issue was not the quality of the scattered energy, but the quantity of it - a result of the total diffuser area and distance from the console. Reducing the scattered energy from the rear wall solved the problem - in that room. Later in that same time period I was in another control room in which the recording engineer's head was only about 3 feet from a flat wall behind. On that flat wall they had placed a diffuser. Guess what? There was no pink noise centre image, and this was a room used to teach recording engineers. I have seen photos of audiophile rooms with the same kind of misplaced diffusers. It may never end because of the attraction to "devices" that "solve" problems that are unsolvable - many of them are built into stereo itself.

Numerous control rooms have been designed to follow IEC and EBU guidance. These are quite dead rooms with all first reflections attenuated. The BBC is also in that category. The IEC/EBU recommendations for choosing and using loudspeakers are simply wrong. I elaborate in an analysis in the "Chapter 3" section of the website associated with the 4th edition. It is very long and detailed. I can post it if anyone is interested.

In terms of the reflected energy that matters to what we hear and prefer there are strong clues but no definitive answers because the dominant influence for imaging, soundstage and spaciousness is the recording itself. This is why how recording engineers listen matters - the circle of confusion. Aberrant monitor loudspeakers and control rooms can result in aberrant recordings.

Chapter 7 in the 4th edition describes some indicators for preferred timing and directions of reflected sounds. The "directional preference balloon" shown in Figure 7.4 is an interesting start. In most typical listening rooms the centre of the back wall is clearly not a rewarding one in terms of delivering any positive listening experience.

Llisteners in many rooms find their heads close enough to a wall behind for that to be a problem - often not addressed at all, with credit and blame attributed to what is happening in front. You and I appear to agree that local absorption behind the listener is the solution, and it should be no less than 4-6 inches (10 -15 cm) of effective fluff or foam. It needs only to shelter the listener from those destructive early reflections - the entire wall doesn't need to be treated so the overall room "acoustic" remains intact.
 
Regarding "listening fatigue" this comes to mind:

You may be familiar with the phenomenon of students sitting in the rear of a large lecture hall becoming so fatigued that they have trouble simply staying awake, much less comprehending complex ideas and committing them to long-term memory. My understanding is that David Griesinger links this to the cognitive load of trying to understand speech in an overly reverberant environment. The brain has a limited amount cognitive ability available. By the time the ear/brain system has deciphered one word, the lecturer has moved on to the next word, and there neither sufficient time nor sufficient surplus cognitive ability to string many words together into complex thoughts and even more complex concepts, and then to commit those complex concepts to long-term memory. After about ten or fifteen minutes that part of the brain is so fatigued the student gets a headache and/or becomes sleepy. (Imo this is a pretty good argument for sitting up near the front whenever possible.)

Perhaps something broadly similar can happen with less neutral loudspeakers even if their sound is not distractingly colored, imposing a heightened cognitive load on the relevant portion of the ear/brain system which over time results in listening fatigue.

In the Harman blind listening tests was listening fatigue observed, and if so, did it seem to track with perceived sound quality?
The Harman double-blind tests were single-listener events and a computer ran the randomized show. The listeners could come and go as they wanted to or could because they had "day jobs". No doubt after a certain length of time a form of fatigue sets in, and it can be as simple as boredom. However, as they were in control of which loudspeaker they heard (not knowing what they were, of course) they spent most of the time discerning small differences between good sounding loudspeakers, not ones with obvious problems.

EDIT: with the best loudspeakers the decisions were not simple because one ended up balancing one kind of just-audible fault agains a different just-audible fault - there was no winner, which is why some listening comparisons ended up as statistical ties. Neither loudspeaker was perfect, but both were very good and the differences varied with program material.
 
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When i had my JBL 1400 Arrays, i was surprised at that i could get away with very little diffusion at the first reflection point on the wall, perhaps this was in part the vertical horn, with the right recording they'd produce remarkably life like focussed imaging, they also measured incredibly flat in room (at least in the mid-range and treble), the only downside was they were quite as convincing on classical music as a more conventional speaker.
I think at the time i got the Arrays i read a lot about you picking people for the blind test at Harman that had good hearing, not engineers or listeners that had spent years listening to music way to loud!
 
Just a side note. Curtain, and even thick ones, are very band limited. Only absorbing in the very highest frequencies and therefore unevenly. That leads to what exactly what you mention - sounding too dead. Your carpet only contributes some in that area. While a thick carpet is more bradband than a curtain, it's still quite bandlimited and doesn't absorb as low as what's ideal.
But clearly there's nothing to change if you're happy with the result.

Yup. I’m aware of those general issues. Which is why I’ve been surprised at how successful just using some current material has been for addressing my issues.
For instance, my left channel speaker is pretty close to some bar fireplace tiles.
This makes the sound coming from that channel a little different and a little more harsh sounding. But all it took was making a cover for that fireplace made out of the same thick velvet curtain material that I use for curtains on the other side wall. Once the cover goes up over the fireplace the problem seems completely fixed to my ears. The tonality seems really even between both channels. Whatever measurements might show, all I care about is whether it passes this subjective test. (I tried using a diffuser on the side walls but the side walls are too close to the speakers and that didn’t work very well, so absorption has been working fine for me).

Thank you for the additional information.

While you not strictly speaking of a LEDE room, it may be of interest to know that a live end-dead end design and which was only used for a short period of time in studio design required a room with very good distance to the rear wall. The contribution from the rear wall mostly arrived around 20 ms after the direct sound. But this design quickly changed to the use of diffusion as soon as they were introduced. And with discovery of ETC measurement, the dead front part changed from all absorptive to sparce and surgically treatment of reflected energy. Thus a LEDE room eventually looked more like the below with late arrival diffuse energy to resemble spaciousness and envelopment of concert halls.

Tele-Image med diffusjon.jpg

Yep, I certainly recognize that look from many of the studios that we mix in. (In fact, I employed an acoustic for my room who built some of our studios).

Just to be clear when I mentioned LEDE, it wasn’t because the acoustician who helped design my room ever told me we were doing a LEDE set up. I don’t think he was aiming for that. The reason it came, my mind is simply that it became mentioned in the thread, and what I thought about my room, I realized that as it happens the front wall behind my loudspeakers is clearly more dead and absorptive than the back wall, windowed space behind me. But it clearly doesn’t fully conform to an official LEDE design.

Fortunately, I’m also able to alter the reflectivity (for upper frequencies anyway) of the screen wall behind the loudspeakers as well. Because the projection screen actually covers almost the entire wall, though much of the time the extra screen space is covered by vertical and horizontal moving black velvet masking panels. So I can go all the way from closing the masking completely so that the back wall is entirely covered with black velvet (that makes things sound too dead), or I can open it up all the way and make most of that wall more lively sounding, so what I do is dial-in (usually with my eyes closed) the amount of absorption on that wall, changing the screen size, until I get the balance I like.
 
The Harman double-blind tests were single-listener events and a computer ran the randomized show. The listeners could come and go as they wanted to or could because they had "day jobs". No doubt after a certain length of time a form of fatigue sets in, and it can be as simple as boredom. However, as they were in control of which loudspeaker they heard (not knowing what they were, of course) they spent most of the time discerning small differences between good sounding loudspeakers, not ones with obvious problems.

EDIT: with the best loudspeakers the decisions were not simple because one ended up balancing one kind of just-audible fault agains a different just-audible fault - there was no winner, which is why some listening comparisons ended up as statistical ties. Neither loudspeaker was perfect, but both were very good and the differences varied with program material.

On a subject that I think is related to listener fatigue, I’m curious about your views on certain colorations that I (and I know others) can associate with fatiguing sound.

And that is when the sound from a loudspeaker at the listening position takes on a slightly “grainy” or “hashy” quality or “coarseness” especially in the upper mid to upper frequencies.

I suffer from tinnitus and also bouts of hyperacusis and while some distinctly audible peaks in the high frequencies can be uncomfortable for me, the type of distortion I’m trying to describe above can often be even more uncomfortable. My Hyperacusis is on the lookout for sound it “ thinks” is too loud, and so it easily reads coarseness and fuzz as distortion, and therefore “ this must be too loud.” The resulting discomfort makes me want to turn the sound down. Which is one reason why I have pursued loudspeakers and sound in my room that is as smooth to my ears as possible.

It’s been my impression that I can actually listen fairly comfortably for a while to a speaker in which I hear (and can see in measurements) a distinct rise in the high frequencies, so long as the sound is otherwise very smooth, in the sense of lacking the type of grit and grain and hash, I’m trying to describe above.

Of course I’m aware these impressions have come from informal listening. So is there something to those impressions?

If so: what type of distortions from a loudspeaker (poorly designed?) might cause an added sense of roughness or grittiness?

Would this also come from certain room reflections as well?


My impressions in playing with the reflectivity of the upper frequencies in my room using curtains etc. as some absorption, is that if I let the room become really reflective the sound starts to take on a little bit of what I call “ room hash” which starts to add that slight fuzziness and grain to the sound.
But when I start cutting down the reflectivity with the curtains, the sound becomes smoother. But also a little darker and rolled off. Therefore, I’m wondering if the smoothening effect is strictly the result of altering the frequency response I get at my listening position, or if it is from cutting down on the specific type of wall reflections that MIX with the direct sound?

I hope what I’m trying to get across is clear enough for you to address :-)

(Btw, I find my speakers to be extremely smooth and listenable no matter how I address the wall reflections, but I do note that the addition of more reflections alters the perceived sound to some degree, as I think would be expected from any average dispersion speaker placed near room boundaries).
 
"Grain" is one of those subjectivist audio terms that over most of my life I have never identified with. I heard resonant colorations, and rarely non-linear distortions, but they are hard: 1% distortion products are 40 dB down so are usually masked. I put that in the past tense because as I have aged and my hearing deteriorated there have been times when I thought one of my transducers had a rubbing voice coil which is a very distinctive grating sound - arguably "grainy". This is not an uncommon failure mode for transducers and it comes and goes with temperature and or humidity, depending . . . I have replaced a few over the years, fortunate enough to get replacements.

All that said, when I heard such nasty sounds and blamed my loudspeakers, I was usually able to convince myself that it was my ears that were misbehaving. Fortunately the phenomenon didn't last long and was infrequent. I can easily imagine neural mechanisms that would generate such distortions. Thankfully I have not experienced it for a long time. Perhaps the offending neural devices have simply stopped working . That is entirely possible as my tinnitus is permanent, and thresholds have risen - no hearing aids yet.

As for room acoustical contributions there is no doubt that our binaural hearing systems degrade with age - conversing in noisy restaurants or reverberant spaces is now a challenge for me. Simplifying the sound field with absorbers or more directional loudspeakers (a challenge) should help. I now listen in a room with more acoustical absorption than in the past, but we still use subtitles quite often. Maybe I need more or maybe some hearing assistance - it is a topic I find distasteful. For music I hear less, but really don't notice it (adaptation at work) and I still find great pleasure in listening - at moderate sound levels, with my tinnitus hissing away over it all. Getting old is not for the faint of heart, but these discussions keep my brain functioning.

Cheers.
 
We are discussing something fundamental in control room design, and as I see it, there is no agreement on how best to do it. The "recommendations" in circulation cover the range from totally diffusive to very dead and reflection controlled. Section 3.5 in the 4th edition discusses some of this. Then there are the near-field users who appear to be increasing in number, in which case they hear direct sound and the room matters little. Cost is minimized for home studios and showplace control rooms are fading in number I am told. "Opinions" obviously exist to support all different designs, and these are "professional" users so their opinions count. We hope the their hearing is intact, because one indicator of hearing problems is a desire to simplify the sound field.
Sure. LEDE/RFZ design, non-enviromental rooms, front to back rooms, ambechoic, very dead rooms and other variations exist. From a lot experience besides theory, how the LEDE/RFZ developed (not how it started out) stands out to me as the better model because of the combination of the ability to hear well into the recorded signal with added spaciousness/development, which is important psycoacosutically.

But certain criterias needs to be met in such a room and that's often overlooked.
The diffusers in my example problem control room were early RPG units, so not the best or the worst. However, the principal issue was not the quality of the scattered energy, but the quantity of it - a result of the total diffuser area and distance from the console. Reducing the scattered energy from the rear wall solved the problem - in that room. Later in that same time period I was in another control room in which the recording engineer's head was only about 3 feet from a flat wall behind. On that flat wall they had placed a diffuser. Guess what? There was no pink noise centre image, and this was a room used to teach recording engineers. I have seen photos of audiophile rooms with the same kind of misplaced diffusers. It may never end because of the attraction to "devices" that "solve" problems that are unsolvable - many of them are built into stereo itself.
The early RPG units were QRD diffusers. Most likely they didn't change the sequence of the units back then, meaning mulitple placed close to each would lead to perioidicy and loss of diffusion or an even scattering. The end result of that is a chaotic back wave. Plus they didn't work above 4 kHz, and which is still a very senstive area in a small room.

And as you point out, they were used to with too close proximity. Don Davis, the main founder of LEDE wrote explicity the following about LEDE:
"The primary goal of an LEDE listening space is to extend the ISD that occurs acoustically in the listening room to a value greater than that present in the performer's area, such as a recording studio. ISD (initial signal delay gap), well known in concert-hall acoustics as the initial time delay gap, ITD.

And Don Davis wrote further:
"The LEDE technique, by virtue of the distance the direct sound must travel to encounter a first reflection, adjusts the initial time delay gap to the same figure that Beranek judged as desirable in the best concert halls, namely 20 ms. It is no coincidence that the same 20 ms is the optimum delay for the maximum Haas effect in good, diffuse, semi-reverberant spaces."

So besides the quality of the diffusers and how they are used together, the distance was important. After all, a diffuser of the nature we're talking about changes the phase. That shouldn't happen for early arriving reflections when accuracy is a goal.
Numerous control rooms have been designed to follow IEC and EBU guidance. These are quite dead rooms with all first reflections attenuated. The BBC is also in that category. The IEC/EBU recommendations for choosing and using loudspeakers are simply wrong. I elaborate in an analysis in the "Chapter 3" section of the website associated with the 4th edition. It is very long and detailed. I can post it if anyone is interested.

In terms of the reflected energy that matters to what we hear and prefer there are strong clues but no definitive answers because the dominant influence for imaging, soundstage and spaciousness is the recording itself. This is why how recording engineers listen matters - the circle of confusion. Aberrant monitor loudspeakers and control rooms can result in aberrant recordings.
I greatly prefer all early reflections attenuated strongly as the contribution is only negative IMO. Something I often ask myself is whether such studies are able to show us what listeners experience over time. Perhaps a short listening session with mainly high quality recordings do not reveal that well what we experience for longer listening sessions and with variation in music material.

I find traditional stereo often lacking in spaciosness. The use of lateral reflections increases it, but IMO leads to tonal variations and listening fatigue with especially poor recordings. Even with quality speakers with a uniform directivity. Multiple speakers add more lobing, comb filtering, increase high gain early reflections unless extensive use of absorption, and while it adds spaciousness it's more a chaotic mess and deviates a lot from accuracy with quite poor imaging.

A well designed modern diffuser on the hand, and as long used correctly (for late arriving reflections) removes much of the negative contribution from reflected surfaces and adds the very much needed spaciousness.
1. Chapter 7 in the 4th edition describes some indicators for preferred timing and directions of reflected sounds. The "directional preference balloon" shown in Figure 7.4 is an interesting start. In most typical listening rooms the centre of the back wall is clearly not a rewarding one in terms of delivering any positive listening experience.

Llisteners in many rooms find their heads close enough to a wall behind for that to be a problem - often not addressed at all, with credit and blame attributed to what is happening in front. You and I appear to agree that local absorption behind the listener is the solution, and it should be no less than 4-6 inches (10 -15 cm) of effective fluff or foam. It needs only to shelter the listener from those destructive early reflections - the entire wall doesn't need to be treated so the overall room "acoustic" remains intact.
1. Which makes sense since the center of the rear wall isn't a specular reflection area. But a 1D diffuser placed there would scatter the sound towards the rear wall before it reachers the listener.

2. Covering large areas with absorptive material (for mids and highs) is generally a poor choice for many surfaces in a small room. Surgically placed treatment in order to maintain ambience and energy was a very important factor of LEDE and is psycoacoustical important. Something that can be used in that regard and without changing the phase, is a poly diffuser on contra lateral reflection points in front of the room. Especially combined with quality diffusion in the rear (with sufficient distance), more sound is send backwards and come back as late diffuse energy.

We do have absorbents now that are thinner and more broadband. The RPG Broadsorbor V2 with only 2 3/8" (6 cm) thickness works quite low as seen below. However, it may be a bit more reflective at the highest frequencies compared to some absorbers. The chart is a NRC measurement FIY, so not the best representative for music.
Broadsorbor V2_over 2 inch thick.jpg


 
Question: for an ESL (or any dipole, really) ... most people try to space them away from the wall to delay the front wall reflection as long as possible. If you are unable to do this, should the front wall be treated with absorption? Or should we forget about dipoles if we are unable to space them away from the front wall? Even if we are able to achieve proper spacing, should the front wall still be treated with absorption?
 
"Grain" is one of those subjectivist audio terms that over most of my life I have never identified with. I heard resonant colorations, and rarely non-linear distortions, but they are hard: 1% distortion products are 40 dB down so are usually masked. I put that in the past tense because as I have aged and my hearing deteriorated there have been times when I thought one of my transducers had a rubbing voice coil which is a very distinctive grating sound - arguably "grainy". This is not an uncommon failure mode for transducers and it comes and goes with temperature and or humidity, depending . . . I have replaced a few over the years, fortunate enough to get replacements.

All that said, when I heard such nasty sounds and blamed my loudspeakers, I was usually able to convince myself that it was my ears that were misbehaving. Fortunately the phenomenon didn't last long and was infrequent. I can easily imagine neural mechanisms that would generate such distortions. Thankfully I have not experienced it for a long time. Perhaps the offending neural devices have simply stopped working . That is entirely possible as my tinnitus is permanent, and thresholds have risen - no hearing aids yet.

As for room acoustical contributions there is no doubt that our binaural hearing systems degrade with age - conversing in noisy restaurants or reverberant spaces is now a challenge for me. Simplifying the sound field with absorbers or more directional loudspeakers (a challenge) should help. I now listen in a room with more acoustical absorption than in the past, but we still use subtitles quite often. Maybe I need more or maybe some hearing assistance - it is a topic I find distasteful. For music I hear less, but really don't notice it (adaptation at work) and I still find great pleasure in listening - at moderate sound levels, with my tinnitus hissing away over it all. Getting old is not for the faint of heart, but these discussions keep my brain functioning.

Cheers.
As for hearing issues, and the intrusive nature of tinnitus, I'm re-reading a book by Oliver Sacks called Musicophilia at the moment, parts of it are about musical hallucinations, reading about some of the patients and the plethora of conditions they have makes me extreme thankful mild tinnitus is all i've got!
Highly recommended for those that have an interesting in music and our perception of it, apologies if this has been discussed before on the forum as i'm relatively new here.
Learning a lot from the discussion in this thread, some of the information is very enlightening.
 
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LEDE/RFZ developed (not how it started out) stands out to me as the better model because of the combination of the ability to hear well into the recorded signal with added spaciousness/development, which is important psycoacosutically.
The audibility and audible effects of early reflections are undoubtedly important, which is why many years ago Sean Olive and I conducted extensive experiments to determine those thresholds.
Olive, S. E. and Toole, F. E. (1989). “The Detection of Reflections in Typical Rooms”, J. Audio Eng. Soc., vol. 37, pp. 539-553.
The abstract is:
“Reflected sounds influence the timbre and spatial character of live and reproduced
sounds. Most investigations of reflections have focused on the performance of live
sounds in large halls. Current interest in the acoustical interactions of rooms, loudspeakers,
and listeners requires further and possibly more relevant data than have been
available. In this study, the effects of reflected sounds were examined as they would
occur in stereophonic reproduction in rooms of domestic or control-room size. Thresholds
were determined as a function of level relative to the direct sound, the angle of incidence,
spectrum, the temporal form of the signal, and reverberation. The relationships between
audible effects and measurements, such as energy-time curves and frequency response,
are discussed.”


If you read this, and some of the data from it repeated in my books (Chapter 6 in the 4th edtion), it is evident that common interpretations of the Haas effect, Haas kickers, the effect of additional reflections, etc. are simplistic or wrong. The widely assumed “fusion zone” of 30 ms applies only to speech in an anechoic environment, yet it gets trotted out for numerous applications involving music in rooms. Few people have taken the trouble to understand the established science, and persist in perpetuating old school notions.
And Don Davis wrote further:
"The LEDE technique, by virtue of the distance the direct sound must travel to encounter a first reflection, adjusts the initial time delay gap to the same figure that Beranek judged as desirable in the best concert halls, namely 20 ms. It is no coincidence that the same 20 ms is the optimum delay for the maximum Haas effect in good, diffuse, semi-reverberant spaces."
This confuses a number of things. Concert halls need diffusion to convey the orchestral energy to all parts of a widely distributed audience. What is heard in a concert hall is a complex comb filter that is very pleasant, but mostly for those who can afford the good seats. Not all reflectied sounds are perceived the same way. The reflected sounds that create the desired envelopment arrive after delays of 60-80 ms and more, arriving from about 60 deg (in the good seats), not 20 ms arriving from the rear in a LEDE room. As shown in the above paper and in my books the precedence (Haas) effect is very different for different sounds, and it changes enormously with the addition of reflected sounds whether they are in the room or in the recording. There are no “single number” generalized solutions. The Haas "kicker" is a based on a significant misinterpretation of published literature, as was tested in the above paper.

Diffusion of the sound field in listening rooms is of no benefit. In fact, if too energetic and from the wrong direction it degrades the delivery of directional and spatial information encoded in the stereo recording. Reflected sounds arriving from the sides are most effective in creating impressions of space - that is how the binaural hearing system works. Even a single synthesized reflection from the side in an anechoic chamber is perceived as "spaciousness" not comb filtering. Humans are programmed that way.

Diffusers in small rooms should be used to attenuate reflections by sending most of the energy off in other – hopefully non-destructive – directions. However, the energy remains in the room, which may not be an advantage. The performance of diffusers that matters most in small rooms is how they alter the attenuated sound reflected in the direction of the listener, a performance factor that is rarely specified. The gratings cause spectrum changes and phase shifts in the reflected sound. Fortunately humans are not sensitive to phase shifts, and the magnitudes are trivial compared to the delays involved, but the spectrum changes in some diffusers are significant. Peter D'Antonio has discussed this and published some data.
I greatly prefer all early reflections attenuated strongly as the contribution is only negative IMO. Something I often ask myself is whether such studies are able to show us what listeners experience over time. Perhaps a short listening session with mainly high quality recordings do not reveal that well what we experience for longer listening sessions and with variation in music material.

I find traditional stereo often lacking in spaciosness. The use of lateral reflections increases it, but IMO leads to tonal variations and listening fatigue with especially poor recordings. Even with quality speakers with a uniform directivity. Multiple speakers add more lobing, comb filtering, increase high gain early reflections unless extensive use of absorption, and while it adds spaciousness it's more a chaotic mess and deviates a lot from accuracy with quite poor imaging.

A well designed modern diffuser on the hand, and as long used correctly (for late arriving reflections) removes much of the negative contribution from reflected surfaces and adds the very much needed spaciousness.
I understand that you are in the business of selling acoustical devices, and I hope your business prospers, but what is stated in this quote are your personal opinions - subjectivity.

I have my opinions too, but from the time I began my research in 1966 I have used the opinions of others, hundreds of them in controlled experiments to focus attention on specific variables. The accumulated data provide a basis for understanding the relationship between what is measured and heard. A single omni mic in a room is not the same as two ears and a brain, and raw ETCs are spectrum blind, not providing the necessary information to assess the audibility of reflections or the multitudes included in diffuse sound fields. The final answers to all questions are not yet discerned, but a genuine scientific approach is needed to clarify those remaining.

In the meantime, so long as recording engineers listen in circumstances that please themselves as individuals the opportunity for the recorded art to transfer to the listener in typical domestic rooms will remain a lottery. An extreme example of this is described in Section 12.5.5 in the 4th edition, where Blackbird Studio C is described and discussed. The design goal for this extravagantly expensive space was to provide George Massenburg, an influential recording engineer, with a wide sweet spot and an acoustically immersive experience. Peter D'Antonio, a genuine expert on diffusers, designed a room with all surfaces covered with 1 m deep broadband 2D diffusers. Sadly, after the effort and expense no new knowledge appears to have emerged. Recording engineers apparently adapted to the unique sensations of the room, and it was (is?) used as an Atmos mix room. Whatever is heard in this room it is not replicated in any audiophile listening space - the ultimate target audience - much less in the rooms occupied by masses of everyday audio enthusiasts, who should be the target.

The widespread use of near-field listening, with or without acoustically dead, reflection eliminated rooms is the extreme opposite of the Blackbird studio. The middle ground is occupied by countless variations.

Recordings need to work in ordinary rooms or they miss the target audience. Now that most listening is done using headphones that argument becomes a somewhat academic question.

At least there are strong indications that monitor loudspeakers have moved in the direction of "high fidelity", neutrality, technical accuracy. This aspect of the circle of confusion is showing signs of rationality.
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Question: for an ESL (or any dipole, really) ... most people try to space them away from the wall to delay the front wall reflection as long as possible. If you are unable to do this, should the front wall be treated with absorption? Or should we forget about dipoles if we are unable to space them away from the front wall? Even if we are able to achieve proper spacing, should the front wall still be treated with absorption?

This is just my opinion.

In some cases set-up geometry can be used to offset lack of distance to the front wall. When you toe-in the frontwave of a dipole, you are simultaneously toeing-out the backwave. So you might need to think in terms of where can you aim the backwave, and what does its resulting reflection path look like.

I would try to use a reflecting panel to redirect the backwave before using diffusion, and diffusion before absorption. Where a real diffusion panel wasn't possible I've used something like a fake ficus tree, positioned to intercept the backwave, or at least the portion of the backwave that would be reflected towards the listening area.

Within my limited range of experience, I have not had good results using absorption of a dipole's backwave. If you cannot get at least 6 milliseconds of path-length delay relative to the frontwave, ime you are probably better off with something else.
 
Thank you, Dr Toole.

"Grain" is one of those subjectivist audio terms that over most of my life I have never identified with.

Ha! Fair enough. Even as somebody who enjoys trying to describe sound, I don’t identify some subjectivist terms either. (Sounds “musical…”)

On a somewhat related note: In my business (sound design for Film and TV) we generally depend on subjective descriptions to communicate among ourselves and with clients. It wouldn’t pass a scientific muster. But we are stuck with it. If during a mix or playback I couldn’t understand what a client means when using subjective descriptions of what they don’t like in a sound or what they are looking for (or if I couldn’t communicate to them about sound in subjective terms ) I’d have a short career in the industry. Occasionally clients can be agonizingly vague or flailing to describe what they want. The more articulate a client is in terms of describing sound (and understanding our descriptions), the easier my job becomes.

I remember seeing some studies referenced here at some point where subjective terms used by the participants were actually part of the study - used to correlate their sonic impressions. It was fascinating and I’m sorry but can’t remember whether it came from your work or not.

I heard resonant colorations, and rarely non-linear distortions, but they are hard: 1% distortion products are 40 dB down so are usually masked. I put that in the past tense because as I have aged and my hearing deteriorated there have been times when I thought one of my transducers had a rubbing voice coil which is a very distinctive grating sound - arguably "grainy". This is not an uncommon failure mode for transducers and it comes and goes with temperature and or humidity, depending . . . I have replaced a few over the years, fortunate enough to get replacements.

Fortunately, I haven’t had any obvious failures in the speakers I’ve owned.

I’ve had some tubes go bad in my tube amplifiers, and the resulting distortion could sometimes be described as a sudden
“ ripping” sound coming from the offending channel. But that’s what I get playing with old technology.


All that said, when I heard such nasty sounds and blamed my loudspeakers, I was usually able to convince myself that it was my ears that were misbehaving. Fortunately the phenomenon didn't last long and was infrequent. I can easily imagine neural mechanisms that would generate such distortions. Thankfully I have not experienced it for a long time. Perhaps the offending neural devices have simply stopped working . That is entirely possible as my tinnitus is permanent, and thresholds have risen - no hearing aids yet.

As for room acoustical contributions there is no doubt that our binaural hearing systems degrade with age - conversing in noisy restaurants or reverberant spaces is now a challenge for me. Simplifying the sound field with absorbers or more directional loudspeakers (a challenge) should help. I now listen in a room with more acoustical absorption than in the past, but we still use subtitles quite often. Maybe I need more or maybe some hearing assistance - it is a topic I find distasteful. For music I hear less, but really don't notice it (adaptation at work) and I still find great pleasure in listening - at moderate sound levels, with my tinnitus hissing away over it all. Getting old is not for the faint of heart, but these discussions keep my brain functioning.

Cheers.

Some of the indignities of ageing. Plenty of us relate :-)

Diffusers in small rooms should be used to attenuate reflections by sending most of the energy off in other – hopefully non-destructive – directions. However, the energy remains in the room, which may not be an advantage. The performance of diffusers that matters most in small rooms is how they alter the attenuated sound reflected in the direction of the listener, a performance factor that is rarely specified. The gratings cause spectrum changes and phase shifts in the reflected sound. Fortunately humans are not sensitive to phase shifts, and the magnitudes are trivial compared to the delays involved, but the spectrum changes in some diffusers are significant.

With apologies that this does not come with measurements, but I had an interesting experience trying a diffuser for the first time in my 15’ x 13’ listening room. It was a curved diffuser that I recently tried placing beside my left channel speaker, to see if I could use diffusion in place of absorption, in mitigating reflections from vertical fireplace wall tiles.
As you would predict, the diffuser was too close to the speaker and it did not sound good. Absorption worked better in this case.

But I found a more surprising use. When I placed that single diffuser near the front wall behind the speakers, it created not only a slight tonal shift but it seemed to add focus and solidity to the imaging. The added sonic density was just a tiny bit more in the direction of having a centre channel.

This was a wonderful discovery because I’ve always been dealing with the trade-off of wanting spaciousness and also good imaging focus. Typically seen as diametrically opposed. But now I’m able to keep my speakers with little toe-in, to engage some sidewall reflections, sit fairly close to the speakers, yet still experience tight palpable imaging within a large apparent sound-field.

I still use it and place it on top of my home theatre centre channel like this:

1786212648002.jpeg


Or in front of the centre channel on the ground like this:

1786212685824.jpeg


(though in that position the perceptual effect is the lower mid/mid bass becomes a bit congested).
 
Thank you, Dr Toole.



Ha! Fair enough. Even as somebody who enjoys trying to describe sound, I don’t identify some subjectivist terms either. (Sounds “musical…”)

On a somewhat related note: In my business (sound design for Film and TV) we generally depend on subjective descriptions to communicate among ourselves and with clients. It wouldn’t pass a scientific muster. But we are stuck with it. If during a mix or playback I couldn’t understand what a client means when using subjective descriptions of what they don’t like in a sound or what they are looking for (or if I couldn’t communicate to them about sound in subjective terms ) I’d have a short career in the industry. Occasionally clients can be agonizingly vague or flailing to describe what they want. The more articulate a client is in terms of describing sound (and understanding our descriptions), the easier my job becomes.

I remember seeing some studies referenced here at some point where subjective terms used by the participants were actually part of the study - used to correlate their sonic impressions. It was fascinating and I’m sorry but can’t remember whether it came from your work or not.



Fortunately, I haven’t had any obvious failures in the speakers I’ve owned.

I’ve had some tubes go bad in my tube amplifiers, and the resulting distortion could sometimes be described as a sudden
“ ripping” sound coming from the offending channel. But that’s what I get playing with old technology.




Some of the indignities of ageing. Plenty of us relate :-)



With apologies that this does not come with measurements, but I had an interesting experience trying a diffuser for the first time in my 15’ x 13’ listening room. It was a curved diffuser that I recently tried placing beside my left channel speaker, to see if I could use diffusion in place of absorption, in mitigating reflections from vertical fireplace wall tiles.
As you would predict, the diffuser was too close to the speaker and it did not sound good. Absorption worked better in this case.

But I found a more surprising use. When I placed that single diffuser near the front wall behind the speakers, it created not only a slight tonal shift but it seemed to add focus and solidity to the imaging. The added sonic density was just a tiny bit more in the direction of having a centre channel.

This was a wonderful discovery because I’ve always been dealing with the trade-off of wanting spaciousness and also good imaging focus. Typically seen as diametrically opposed. But now I’m able to keep my speakers with little toe-in, to engage some sidewall reflections, sit fairly close to the speakers, yet still experience tight palpable imaging within a large apparent sound-field.

I still use it and place it on top of my home theatre centre channel like this:

View attachment 550234

Or in front of the centre channel on the ground like this:

View attachment 550235

(though in that position the perceptual effect is the lower mid/mid bass becomes a bit congested).
I have no explanation for what you heard, but the choice of a curved surface diffuser instead of the slotted or cubed ones was, in my opinion, a good one. Larger hemicylinders are very successful. It is explained in the books.
 
When you say Dr. Toole that people become accustom to a particular loudspeaker, can we say then that perhaps like certain beverages, it is an "acquired taste"? Does this then become a new preference such that a speaker which performs at a level less than your standard, if it is tested by a group of listeners who have previously acclimated to its sound, regardless of shortcomings, would then prefer it over a better measuring speaker? It seems likely that preferences can change over time as a result of experience and training, perhaps this works in both directions?

We know that other senses can be cultivated to appreciate what we might call "expensive tastes". Alcohol comes to mind- wine, whiskey, champagne- I recall buying a bottle of Dom Perignon when I first started work out of college to impress a girlfriend. We both would have been happier with a $20 bottle of Asti Spumonti. Best beer in college was free beer, followed by cold beer. Now I am a beer snob addicted to Belgian Abby ales. Similarly, after living in Japan for many years, I became to prefer certain types of incense over others. Incense is perhaps unique in that blind testing is the norm. I find there is tremendous variation in preferences for alcohol, scents, and even visual stimulus. What is your theory on the seemingly unique commonality of preferences for aural stimulus?
 
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When you say Dr. Toole that people become accustom to a particular loudspeaker, can we say then that perhaps like certain beverages, it is an "acquired taste"? Does this then become a new preference such that a speaker which performs at a level less than your standard, if it is tested by a group of listeners who have previously acclimated to its sound, regardless of shortcomings, would then prefer it over a better measuring speaker? It seems likely that preferences can change over time as a result of experience and training, perhaps this works in both direction?
A good point. I think there is a fundamental difference between preferences in beverages, where there are no standards - perhaps water, but even there differences exist. Loudspeakers are called upon to reproduce sounds that are at least somewhat familiar to most people in live experiences. But it turns out that familiarity with the original is not a requirement of recognizing flaws in a reproduction. Curious . . .

In certain kinds of subjective evaluations that might be demonstrable. Adaptation and contrast effects definitely exist. However in the blind, equal-loudness multiple-loudspeaker comparisons used in our many experiments it has not been a factor. People who have lived with flawed loudspeakers for years uniformly recognize loudspeakers with fewer, less audible, flaws. It may be that in the first few comparisons there is a residue of their accumulated adaptation, but in the randomly repeated comparisons it obviously fades. I explain this in the slide show referenced elsewhere: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...is-coming-discount.63666/page-13#post-2579817

The loudspeakers used in my first test, shown early in the show, were very different and very coloured, and their owners truly liked them. They were proud owners who, after the experience were puzzled that they had found pleasure in such flawed products. The most preferred loudspeaker was not without flaws but it was closer to the ideal we now strive for than the others. It was the most technically accurate one in the group. One of those listeners was the head of the Applied Physics Division in which I worked, and he was a strong supporter of the notion that this was a worthy research topic - he disliked his large, expensive, highly regarded Tannoys :(.

Listeners were asked to rate what they heard on a "fidelity" scale, rubbish to the best sound imaginable. This is the kind of question one asks when doing a conventional sit down and listen experiment, but in the context of these multiple comparisons it was the differences that stood out, and the loudspeakers with the most audible colorations were discriminated against. The listeners answered a different - unasked - question: what are these loudspeakers doing to the sound?
 
Fortunately, I haven’t had any obvious failures in the speakers I’ve owned.
Rubbing voice coils can linger unnoticed - another "adaptation" perhaps. It is wise to occasionally run a slow pure-tone sweep 20 to 20k and listen for buzzes. Then use a single frequency near the low end of each driver's frequency range, thereby generating maximum motion, and listen for nasties. In bad cases, just pushing gently on the centre dome of a cone driver can elicit rubbing sounds. Don't do this in a tweeter though.
 
... the choice of a curved surface diffuser instead of the slotted or cubed ones was, in my opinion, a good one. Larger hemicylinders are very successful. It is explained in the books.

My preference would be diffusion with minimal accompanying alteration of the spectral balance, and my instinct is that a large hemisphere would have less effect on the in-room high-frequency content than something like a 2D quadratic diffusor. Is this correct? Asking because "instinct" can be unreliable in the realm of acoustics and psychoacoustics.
 
My preference would be diffusion with minimal accompanying alteration of the spectral balance, and my instinct is that a large hemisphere would have less effect on the in-room high-frequency content than something like a 2D quadratic diffusor. Is this correct? Asking because "instinct" can be unreliable in the realm of acoustics and psychoacoustics.
YES, check out Section 12.4.3 in the 4th edition. Hemi-cylinders - deployed correctly - work superbly, can be a style "feature" and are inexpensive.
 
This thread interests me because I use electrostatic speakers, yet in another system with top-range EgglestonWorks speakers I found that for some recordings I actually preferred the Egglestons. So what exactly are we chasing when we talk about accuracy or flat response? I no longer think those things are as important as we often claim, especially with music and stereo.

Good point about the difference between beverages and loudspeakers, but I think the claim that familiarity with the original is not required still rests on prior experience in a way that is easy to overlook.

People recognise a sound as “coloured” because they measure it against a class of similar sounds they already know. The specific original recording is not required, yet a working model of how those kinds of sounds normally behave is required. Without that model a truly naïve listener would simply hear another sound, not a flawed version of one.

The king-penguin studies illustrate the same distinction. Chicks can locate and recognise their own parent’s call when it is played from a single loudspeaker in the middle of a screaming colony of thousands (Aubin & Jouventin). The loudspeaker used was a limited-bandwidth pro unit (Audax speaker) — hardly accurate by any hi-fi standard. What the chicks locked onto was not a complete, tonally accurate spectrogram. They used a small set of robust cues: the shape of the frequency modulation within a syllable, the beat pattern from the two-voice system, and the timing and structure of the call. Even when the signal was heavily masked and spectrally incomplete, the call remained real to them.

We see the same thing with 1960s land-line telephones. The channel was narrow, coloured, and full of artefacts, yet almost everyone could still tell whether it was their mother, their sister, or a stranger. The voice stayed real because the pauses, the rhythm, the speaking style, and a few surviving formant cues were intact. Tonal accuracy was missing; identity and presence were not.

That is why I am uneasy about the way we treat loudspeaker “accuracy” in music. We have elevated a particular technical target (smooth response, low resonance, etc.) into a standard and then treat it as if it were absolute. In practice, what makes recorded music feel real to modern listeners is often the overall tonal character and the internal relationships within the sound — the stops, the pauses, the style — whether or not those relationships happen to be “coloured” by the loudspeaker. Stereo itself is already a constructed illusion, not a transparent window onto an acoustic event. Once we accept that, the insistence that every loudspeaker must chase the same neutral target starts to look like we are defending a convention we invented rather than discovering a natural law.

The interesting question is not whether listeners can detect deviations from neutrality. It is whether neutrality is actually the thing that makes the music feel alive.

ST
 
The interesting question is not whether listeners can detect deviations from neutrality. It is whether neutrality is actually the thing that makes the music feel alive.
The key that you overlooked is that the vast majority of listeners prefer neutrality (in blind tests), not simply able to detect it.
prefer_neutral.png
 
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