Electrostatic speakers?

[RetroStereo]

The frequency range of human hearing is generally described as being from 20Hz to 20KHz; however, that full range generally only applies to children. Even teenagers (who have not abused their ears) generally lose some of their HF hearing. On average, by the time a person is 30, his HF limit has dropped below 16KHz -- by 40, 15KHz; by 50, 14KHz; by 60, 12KHz, and at 75, only 6KHz if he's lucky. This gradual, age-related hearing loss is known as presbycusis.

I was born with an unusual hearing disorder. As a very young child, I would start screaming and cover my ears for no apparent reason. I also got terrible migraine headaches. Eventually I was taken to an otolaryngologist - an ear, nose & throat specialist - who discovered that I could hear frequencies significantly higher than normal -- between 26 & 27KHz. Essentially, I could hear high frequency noise generated by electrical equipment and some motors that no one else was aware of. I could even hear some silent dog whistles. And it hurt. I was fitted with earplugs that I continued to wear until my early 20's. My hearing dropped below 20KHz in my mid 20's. Now, at age 75, my HF hearing has dropped below about 16KHz (making my ears about 45 years younger than the rest of my falling-apart body).

I do not have so called "golden ears" -- I can't hear things that simply aren't there. And I am not a trained listener. But I can easily hear differences in the HF response of many speakers. I have a very clear preference for ESLs, AMTs and ribbon tweeters over other designs. They sound natural to me. And I have always hated the way the famous Bose 901 speakers sounded -- I'd rather not listen at all.

 

[Newman]

The frequency range of human hearing is generally described as being from 20Hz to 20KHz; however, that full range generally only applies to children. Even teenagers (who have not abused their ears) generally lose some of their HF hearing. On average, by the time a person is 30, his HF limit has dropped below 16KHz -- by 40, 15KHz; by 50, 14KHz; by 60, 12KHz, and at 75, only 6KHz if he's lucky. This gradual, age-related hearing loss is known as presbycusis.

I was born with an unusual hearing disorder. As a very young child, I would start screaming and cover my ears for no apparent reason. I also got terrible migraine headaches. Eventually I was taken to an otolaryngologist - an ear, nose & throat specialist - who discovered that I could hear frequencies significantly higher than normal -- between 26 & 27KHz. Essentially, I could hear high frequency noise generated by electrical equipment and some motors that no one else was aware of. I could even hear some silent dog whistles. And it hurt. I was fitted with earplugs that I continued to wear until my early 20's. My hearing dropped below 20KHz in my mid 20's. Now, at age 75, my HF hearing has dropped below about 16KHz (making my ears about 45 years younger than the rest of my falling-apart body).

I do not have so called "golden ears" -- I can't hear things that simply aren't there. And I am not a trained listener. But I can easily hear differences in the HF response of many speakers. I have a very clear preference for ESLs, AMTs and ribbon tweeters over other designs. They sound natural to me. And I have always hated the way the famous Bose 901 speakers sounded -- I'd rather not listen at all.

So your HF hearing is now worse than the typical teen and twenty-something, so why haven't teens and twenty-somethings been reporting 'very clear preference' for non-typical tweeter speakers in controlled tests? Probably because such speakers don't have a particular advantage.

Expectation bias needs to be taken into account here. Audiophiles have been reporting how superior 'hifi exotica' sound since forever...until they participate in a controlled listening test.

cheers

 

[RetroStereo]

So your HF hearing is now worse than the typical teen and twenty-something, so why haven't teens and twenty-somethings been reporting 'very clear preference' for non-typical tweeter speakers in controlled tests? Probably because such speakers don't have a particular advantage.

Expectation bias needs to be taken into account here. Audiophiles have been reporting how superior 'hifi exotica' sound since forever...until they participate in a controlled listening test.

cheers

I'm not saying ESLs AMTs & ribbons are necessarily better. I'm saying that they are my preference. I specifically noted that I'm not a "golden eared" audiophile. I've owned AR3a, AR5, large Advent, and DQ10/DQ1W speakers in the past. At the time I bought the Dahlquists, I seriously considered the ESS AMT-1 speakers. I preferred the treble reproduction of the ESS but didn't like its bass. The Dahlquist seemed to have a much better balance -- at least, to me. I've heard many other very fine speakers over the years. And I've heard ones I didn't like at all. That doesn't mean that no one should like them.

The Bose 901 speakers were a major success. I don't think that would have been the case if they were awful speakers. I just didn't like them. I had met Dr Bose (and liked him). I had heard all the hype about how great they were. But, to my ear, with my weird hearing, they just didn't sound right. Nothing to do with expectation bias at all.

 

[Newman]

Yes, I understood what you did and did not explicitly say. OTOH if there aren't even any implications to what you said, then all that is left is a unicorn story.

 

[traind]

Yes, I understood what you did and did not explicitly say. OTOH if there aren't even any implications to what you said, then all that is left is a unicorn story.

Hmmm. You reference 'data' to argue against his preference for electrostats but then you climb the ladder of inference to refute the specific observable words he wrote with your own interpretations of what "he was implying". It's a little curious, isn't it?

And I don't think his story is a unicorn. It's a story of being burdened by overly sensitive hearing in his youth. Unicorns don't exist, people hypersensitive to sound do indeed exist.

 

[Newman]

Hmmm. You reference 'data' to argue against his preference for electrostats but then you climb the ladder of inference to refute the specific observable words he wrote with your own interpretations of what "he was implying". It's a little curious, isn't it?

And I don't think his story is a unicorn. It's a story of being burdened by overly sensitive hearing in his youth. Unicorns don't exist, people hypersensitive to sound do indeed exist.

I, too was tempted to suggest hyperacuity, in addition to the ultrasonic hyperacusis he stated he has. But unlike you, I thought the better of publicly discussing his medical conditions.

I also got the impression that he was himself pretty keen to describe himself in terms of being exceptional ie unicorn-ish, so your disputing that is perhaps better for you to take up with him.

 

[RetroStereo]

It's called ultrasonic hyperacusis. 70 years ago it was treated with earplugs (if at all - the first several doctors said I was acting out). Today it's treated with pink noise generating hearing aids that mask the HF and train your brain not to notice. I was trying to explain based on a reaction to earlier posts in this thread. I'll probably be a little less forthcoming in the future.

 

[norman bates]

anyone here own the martin logan esl's ?

The current ones retailing for $2,800/pair..................

Opinions ?

If you are worried about getting beat up, send me mail (here).

 

[Keith_W]

anyone here own the martin logan esl's ?

The current ones retailing for $2,800/pair..................

Opinions ?

If you are worried about getting beat up, send me mail (here).

Not sure which model you are considering, but here are a some measurements on spinorama.org for two models:

Martin Logan Prodigy
Martin Logan Vista

Both of them look fairly similar. Wonky on-axis frequency response, rather ragged horizontal directivity ...

... but the real question is - "what happens if you flatten the on-axis response with DSP?". Here you can see that the on-axis has been normalized at 0dB to a flat line. That horizontal dispersion is still ragged, but the SPDI is somewhat acceptable. It's higher than you would like (10dB) which means that the speaker has a relatively narrow dispersion.

What we do not have measurements for is vertical dispersion, and I can tell you from subjective experience is that it is likely to be horrible. Standing up, or moving anywhere from the sweet spot (which is fairly narrow) results in massive changes in tonality.

We also do not have measurements for compression and distortion. But these are likely to be pretty average as well, subjectively they can't go too loud. The distortion isn't subtle either.

I would only buy these speakers if it's (1) a single listener system or if you have a narrow room. The narrower dispersion for a narrow room would be an advantage; and (2) you have a plan to flatten the frequency response with DSP; and (3) you don't mind the low-ish listening volumes. You need larger ESL's if you want higher volume. Otherwise, they can not be recommended.

 

[egellings]

So your HF hearing is now worse than the typical teen and twenty-something, so why haven't teens and twenty-somethings been reporting 'very clear preference' for non-typical tweeter speakers in controlled tests? Probably because such speakers don't have a particular advantage.

Expectation bias needs to be taken into account here. Audiophiles have been reporting how superior 'hifi exotica' sound since forever...until they participate in a controlled listening test.

cheers

It might also be that teens are not so concerned about that last bit of audiophile perfection in the sound. They program '1' to their autoboogie register and get the moves on. (I'm a 79 year old codger.)

 

[egellings]

anyone here own the martin logan esl's ?

The current ones retailing for $2,800/pair..................

Opinions ?

If you are worried about getting beat up, send me mail (here).

I don't think that those speakers are that inexpensive. Add another zero to the sum.

 

[Newman]

It might also be that teens are not so concerned about that last bit of audiophile perfection in the sound. They program '1' to their autoboogie register and get the moves on. (I'm a 79 year old codger.)

So do 99% of 79 year olds, with 60-year adjustment for program material and dance moves.

I took it as a given that we are talking about the minority who are interested in excellence of sound quality, regardless of age.

 

[Newman]

Not sure which model you are considering, but here are a some measurements on spinorama.org for two models:...I would only buy these speakers if it's (1) a single listener system or if you have a narrow room. The narrower dispersion for a narrow room would be an advantage;

Even then, it may actually be a disadvantage, given that (1a) ESL companies advise keeping them well away from side walls; and (1b) Toole's evidence trends towards a listener preference for including near-side-wall reflections to soften the ASW deficiencies of stereo playback.

and (2) you have a plan to flatten the frequency response with DSP; and (3) you don't mind the low-ish listening volumes.

Especially low after (2).

You need larger ESL's if you want higher volume.

Frankly, a subwoofer with EQ becomes near-essential, especially after (2).

Otherwise, they can not be recommended.

Even then. After all those adjustments, it seems that the only remaining reason to recommend them is for people who discount conventional tech in favour of exotica.

cheers

 

[MattHooper]

It's called ultrasonic hyperacusis. 70 years ago it was treated with earplugs (if at all - the first several doctors said I was acting out). Today it's treated with pink noise generating hearing aids that mask the HF and train your brain not to notice. I was trying to explain based on a reaction to earlier posts in this thread. I'll probably be a little less forthcoming in the future.

I didn’t have ultrasonic hyperacusis just regular ol’ hyperacusis. But I was treated with the therapy you reference.

When my hyperacusis was at its worse it was completely bizarre. Because certain frequencies were interpreted as too loud and painful by my auditory system. Higher frequency pure tones especially felt like knives, leaping out and stabbing my ears.

One of the weirdest things was that I had a tone generator on my iPhone, and I set it to one of the offending high frequencies. As soon as I dialled up to that specific frequency, it was like the sound left out of the phone and it was occurring right beside or in my ear.

I put my phone down in one room and I backed away slowly from the phone playing that tone. And almost no matter how far I got away down the hall that tone still sounded like it was almost just as loud and right beside or inside my ear. Definitely one of the most bizarre things I’ve experienced.

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

After all those adjustments, it seems that the only remaining reason to recommend them is for people who discount conventional tech in favour of exotica.

You say that like it’s a bad thing

 

[norman bates]

https://www.crutchfield.com/S-RNC6lv9iDYa/p_839EMESLD/MartinLogan-ElectroMotion-ESL-Satin-Black.html?XVINQ=GZ0&XVVer=RWQ&awcr=628634076476&awdv=c&awnw=g&awug=9060351&awkw=pla-1838049052959&awmt=&awat=pla&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=18590063256&gclid=EAIaIQobChMInL6ZjKnnlAMVzIfCCB3msQeREAQYASABEgLNNfD_BwE

 

[Keith_W]

Even then, it may actually be a disadvantage, given that (1a) ESL companies advise keeping them well away from side walls; and (1b) Toole's evidence trends towards a listener preference for including near-side-wall reflections to soften the ASW deficiencies of stereo playback.

Thank you for making those points. Can you remind me what ASW is?

Anyway, in case your point was missed: DSP/EQ works by sacrificing volume for linearity. If you look at the on-axis freq response for those two ML speakers, you will see that there is very little bass. It is a "treble happy" speaker. If you attempt to cut down the treble to match the bass, you will lose 10dB of headroom. This is disastrous for a speaker that can't go very loud in the first place. So subwoofers would be essential. Unfortunately - the bass is deficient UP TO 200Hz, which means (1) the subs need to be able to go to 200Hz, AND (2) they MUST be co-located with the speaker with very careful DSP to avoid comb filtering!

These speakers have major issues. It might be fun to fix those issues if you like a challenge, but some issues can't be fixed. The bass can potentially be fixed, but the directivity problems can't. It's less of an problem if you are glued to your listening chair, but if you wander around the room listening to music, these speakers are not for you.

 

[MarkS]

ASW = apparent source width

 

[Keith_W]

ASW = apparent source width

Thank you. I am reading a book on submarines at the moment, and to me "ASW" means "Anti-Submarine Warfare".

 

[Newman]

Thank you. I am reading a book on submarines at the moment, and to me "ASW" means "Anti-Submarine Warfare".

I'm sure there is a sub(woofer) for that kind of ASW.