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Electrostatic speakers?

@Heinrich ... That's not allowed on ASR when directed against researchers who Amir regards as the top luminaries in the field. ...
I'm a bit sceptical already, but now you tell me that science is about ranking, and effectively authority - do I get it wrong?

To the contrary, I was a little bit concerned that a scientist won't be happy to be placed on a pedestal. Look, I quoted your previous post, leaving out certain parts for a reason, and now do the same. There's a lot of crazy chit-chat in audio, but that doesn't transform reasonable people into ... can't tell?! When I discussed topics regarding the research of Dr. Floyed Toole, it was with an open, friendly face. I didn't touch any of his topics here. What are you talking about when accusing me of breaking elementary rules?!

Otherwise it is about 'lateral reflections' again? You ask me what I did on that topic. Well, a big deal, I just ignore it. Or, maybe not. I listen to narrow dispersion speakers mostly, but off-center always. I recently designed a show-piece in wide dispersion, that was discarded by the community here.

I have a theory, that stereo shall be enjoyable even out of the optimum listening position. I was told that such an approach is not agreeable. At least is was deemed of no interest. So be it.
 
Question: from my understanding b Dr. Toole’s research discusses preferences for broad dispersion speakers and some amount of side wall reflections that cause a more generally positive listening experience. Dr. Choueiri’s research and BACCH and the hardware itself works the best with narrow directivity speakers and less room reflections. (If I’m wrong correct me please).

How does one deal with these somewhat contradictory conclusions in their enjoyment of audio?

I find that even without BACCH I find that the “deader” the room the more I like the sound. I can’t possibly live in an anechoic chamber but my listening room is very large and treated
So I’m Not getting many reflections.
 
Question: from my understanding b Dr. Toole’s research discusses preferences for broad dispersion speakers and some amount of side wall reflections that cause a more generally positive listening experience.
That is with 2-channel audio. A lot of the research for 2-channel audio is trying to find ways to compensate for its numerous and significant deficiencies. In this case, apparent source width.

Since multichannel audio, done well, removes much of the deficiencies of 2-channel audio, it does not have the same recommendations as are necessary for 2-channel audio. In this case, neither broad dispersion nor side wall reflections are as 'useful' for multichannel audio, so they are absent from the recommendations for a multichannel audio system.

So, when you say "Toole's research", he has done a lot for both 2CH and MCH, and does not say that the same preferences for speaker attributes and room attributes apply to all playback technologies.

Dr. Choueiri’s research and BACCH and the hardware itself works the best with narrow directivity speakers and less room reflections. (If I’m wrong correct me please).

How does one deal with these somewhat contradictory conclusions in their enjoyment of audio?
Pick one playback technology. Follow the recommendations for the one you picked.

I find that even without BACCH I find that the “deader” the room the more I like the sound. I can’t possibly live in an anechoic chamber but my listening room is very large and treated
So I’m Not getting many reflections.
Well that is interesting because when listeners assess their experiences listening to music in actual anechoic chambers, they rate it very poorly.

You could be an anomaly.

cheers
 
Because the way cross-talk cancellation (XTC, which is what BACCH does) works, it has its own specialized set of requirements that are different from or contradictory to normal sound reporduction methods.

XTC works by the left and right speakers emitting "cancellation signals" to cancel the cross-talk from the opposite side speaker (i.e. left speaker to right ear or right speaker to left ear). These cancellation signals can only be computed, and therefore are only effective for cancelling the cross-talk from the direct sound. If there is a lot of reverberant sound in the room, these cancellations will be much less effective since you'll be hearing the cross-talk cancelled signals "contaminated" by the strong reflected sounds.

Similiarly, XTC works better in general with smaller separation angles between the L&R speakers than the standard 60° of standard stereo, which is another deviation from standard listening setups.
XTC.png


Source: https://3d3a.princeton.edu/publicat...-cancellation-binaural-audio-two-loudspeakers
 
That is with 2-channel audio. A lot of the research for 2-channel audio is trying to find ways to compensate for its numerous and significant deficiencies. In this case,

The same deficiencies that exist within the recording studio.

Hi-Fi is merely trying to recreate an illusion, in the same way that a video or photograph can never be three dimensional.

Arguing that 'science proves' that ESL's have deficiencies, is a boringly moot point. All transducers have deficiencies, some more than others.
To many thousands of owners they provide the closest to the illusion.

Approximately 60,000 units of the original Quad ESL (also known as the ESL 57) were produced during its 25-year production run before being discontinued in 1981, according to SDS Audio Labs. The newer ESL-63 model was introduced shortly before the original ESL was discontinued.

I guess I could contact Quad to find how many sales they have had of their ESL's in the last 44 years.

Or more to the point how many Quad ESL owners have read Toole's work.

Maybe the 69 years of production has some merit?

Maybe in listening tests those brought up listening to 'box' speakers think that is how sound should be.

The only real test is for people to listen to non amplified acoustic instruments, then compare the sound recorded and replayed through various systems. Not reading and debating the science of audio acoustics
 
Has anyone heard the Popori ESLs?

I haven't heard them but they're getting rave reviews, and unless the manufacturer flat out lied, the specs are so good that one has to wonder what magic or hype they invoked.

As an DIY ESL designer/builder, I would love to have a peek under the hood.

Here's a video for one of the lower-end models in the Popori lineup:
 
Has anyone heard the Popori ESLs?

I haven't heard them but they're getting rave reviews, and unless the manufacturer flat out lied, the specs are so good that one has to wonder what magic or hype they invoked.

As an DIY ESL designer/builder, I would love to have a peek under the hood.

Here's a video for one of the lower-end models in the Popori lineup:

Yeah, I brought up popori before and I was going to post that video too to see what people thought, since it’s a brief, concise introduction to the claims about that loudspeaker. Thanks for bringing it up.
 
Maybe in listening tests those brought up listening to 'box' speakers think that is how sound should be.

Maybe we should stop generalizing the sound based on the design principle of a transducer. I have listened to a significant number of different speakers, partly involving anechoic measurements and controlled tests, and I dispute the existence of a general sound tendency ´this is how a box speaker sounds´, ´this is the ESL sound´. Such things do not exist.

There are some properties which create a certain base for speakers which are designed that way sounding similar. For example omnis or line sources, but it is the directivity pattern over the frequency range which is similar, not the transducer principle.

I have listened to some impressive stats and appreciate their virtues, but have decided that they are not for me personally. Nevertheless I was interested to find out what makes them stand apart, and if it could be achieved by conventional speakers (or at least by smaller, louder speakers offering wider listening window). There is an interesting YT comment by Paul McGowan on exactly that approach:

Link to YouTube

He has a similar opinion of stats but suggests compact multi-way planar magnetostats combined with dynamic bass drivers in a box as the best substitute. I personally tend to find AMTs, line sources, dipoles and cardioids to come closer to the aspects I love in electrostatic.

The only real test is for people to listen to non amplified acoustic instruments, then compare the sound recorded and replayed through various systems.

If you don't have access to the recording chain, meaning being present both in the auditorium and during mixing process, this might lead to this or that error in judgement. I have done this several times, listening to the general rehearsal of a concert from behind the broadcast balance engineer, eventually experiencing the concert itself live in the auditorium. Differences are pretty pronounced, and in many cases I had to ask the balance engineer why they deviated from the sound impression in the hall that much.

So with a recording or broadcast which is intentionally deviating from the live sound, you cannot judge a stereo system by means of coming closer to the live sound rather than reproducing the control room sound. Does not make sense at all.
 
The same deficiencies that exist within the recording studio.
Are you trying to mount the case that the speaker and room treatment priorities are identical for recording studios and home playback? If not, what is your argument?

Hi-Fi is merely trying to recreate an illusion, in the same way that a video or photograph can never be three dimensional.
That hifi is an illusion is well understood and agreed widely. If you think it refutes my points, you are missing my points.

Arguing that 'science proves' that ESL's have deficiencies, is a boringly moot point. All transducers have deficiencies, some more than others.
To many thousands of owners they provide the closest to the illusion.
That is not the argument. The argument is that they have deficiencies that make them less preferred by listeners. They also have strengths, but the net effect seems to be less preference, when listened to in controlled experimental conditions.

I guess I could contact Quad to find how many sales they have had of their ESL's in the last 44 years.
??? This is an argument? I guess I could ask them how many of their box speakers they have sold. Or I could ask Sonos.

Or more to the point how many Quad ESL owners have read Toole's work.
??? That's more to the point??

Maybe the 69 years of production has some merit?
???

Maybe in listening tests those brought up listening to 'box' speakers think that is how sound should be.
This is like a string of excuses.

The only real test is for people to listen to non amplified acoustic instruments, then compare the sound recorded and replayed through various systems. Not reading and debating the science of audio acoustics
You misunderstood. The 'science' that I am referring to includes listening tests for preference. But they are controlled.

When people listen to loudspeakers in the audiophile manner, sighted and uncontrolled, their sound quality impressions are dominated by non-sonic factors. The frequently-cited listening preferences for ESLs (and sales receipts) are actually dominated by non-sonic factors in favour of ESLs, such as:-
  • physically imposing
  • high price
  • exotic technology
  • exclusivity
  • elitism
  • excited reviews by the audiophile press (exclusively using sighted listening)
However, when ESLs participate in properly controlled listening tests, they don't do well. When told this, ESL owners/defenders start cranking up another list of excuses aimed at discrediting the tests. Which is the typical action of fans of any product when told it doesn't do well in real tests.

cheers
 
However, when ESLs participate in properly controlled listening tests, they don't do well. When told this, ESL owners/defenders start cranking up another list of excuses aimed at discrediting the tests. Which is the typical action of fans of any product when told it doesn't do well in real tests.

I do remember examples for that having been posted, but can’t remember the details, exactly - aside from I think that it keeps coming up a Martin Logan ESL did poorly.
And I remember quads I think we’re involved in one (where I believe, preference scores differed somewhat between mono and stereo use).

Just so we can be sure that the conclusion you are drawing about ESLs in general isn’t overstepping what can be leveraged from the data, could you remind us how many different electrostatics had been part of the blind testing? How many such tests were done with ESLs?

This is so we can keep separate claims like:

“ electrostatics have yet to prove they can meet the highest preference scores”

Versus

“ we can conclude from the available research that electrostatics suffer deficiencies that will rule them out of achieving high preference scores.”

Which of course would be two different claims.

(if Newman refuses to answer this, maybe somebody else could answer?)
 
However, when ESLs participate in properly controlled listening tests, they don't do well.

I suppose, as proponent of science, you have handy relevant sources and data for your statement.
 
This came up in my quick forum search:
...
Conventional anechoic measurements are capable of revealing how such speakers can sound, and there are good and less good examples of the breed. One can easily find examples of panel loudspeakers with audible resonances, disruptive directivity characteristics, limited power handling capability, and so on. In the 3rd edition Figure , Figure 18.1(c) shows a Quad ESL Mark 1, 7.12 shows data on a Quad ESL 63, Figure 18.7(a) shows a Magnaplanar 3.6. The 1st and 2nd editions show a Martin Logan Prodigy as Speaker M in Figure 18.4. In every case the results of double-blind listening tests revealed evidence of what the measurements show.
Therefore, per Dr. Toole, conventional measurements (i.e. spinorama) are equally applicable to panel dipole speakers as to conventional forward firing ones.
 
That is with 2-channel audio. A lot of the research for 2-channel audio is trying to find ways to compensate for its numerous and significant deficiencies. In this case, apparent source width.

Since multichannel audio, done well, removes much of the deficiencies of 2-channel audio, it does not have the same recommendations as are necessary for 2-channel audio. In this case, neither broad dispersion nor side wall reflections are as 'useful' for multichannel audio, so they are absent from the recommendations for a multichannel audio system.

So, when you say "Toole's research", he has done a lot for both 2CH and MCH, and does not say that the same preferences for speaker attributes and room attributes apply to all playback technologies.


Pick one playback technology. Follow the recommendations for the one you picked.


Well that is interesting because when listeners assess their experiences listening to music in actual anechoic chambers, they rate it very poorly.

You could be an anomaly.

cheers
Yes I don’t live in an anechoic chamber so I can’t speak to that but I enjoy the clarity of less reflections. I have optimized my setup for using BACCH and that requires a lot of room treatments. With more treatments my standard speakers in the same room also get better imaging. I think for any aspect of life trying to draw conclusions about your day to day left from research findings is often not helpful. I think it’s the descriptive nature of the science being seen as prescriptive by the end user.
 
This came up in my quick forum search:

Therefore, per Dr. Toole, conventional measurements (i.e. spinorama) are equally applicable to panel dipole speakers as to conventional forward firing ones.
The comparing the measurements of broth it’s easy to see why they can sound very different.
 
I suppose, as proponent of science, you have handy relevant sources and data for your statement.

This came up in my quick forum search:

Therefore, per Dr. Toole, conventional measurements (i.e. spinorama) are equally applicable to panel dipole speakers as to conventional forward firing ones.
I suppose, as proponent of science, you have handy relevant sources and data for your statement.
I am not surprised that they are not well liked. A single esl speaker has such narrow dispersion that all of the reverbs and spacial effects have to come from the recording and not the room. It’s somewhat as like listening to a single mono earbud vs headphones.
 
The same way ASR deals with any contradictory conclusion ... argue with each other until we're all blue in the face ;)
The science would tell you that you are not actually “blue in the face” and the the color blood’s deoxygenated hemoglobin interacts is filtered by the skin which absorbs most wavelengths light leaving only the blue wavelengths for one to see. Also how does hypoxia change one’s perception of audio especially considering the lower partial pressure of oxygen at higher altitudes and the change in the speed of sound at such altitude?
 
I am not surprised that they are not well liked. A single esl speaker has such narrow dispersion that all of the reverbs and spacial effects have to come from the recording and not the room.

My assumption would be they are not well-liked when listening to dry monaural material or such with decorrelated reverb, on a single speaker in mono, as they reveal the deficiencies of mono and improper mastering to the fullest. I have done controlled listening tests with different speaker concepts years ago, and electrostatic dipoles were described as revealing the extreme proximity of such recordings.

If you present recordings which contain meaningful spatial cues, like acoustic recordings from a concert hall, this result was flipping, as participants could hear, well, the reverb from the concert hall. With dipoles and their characteristic rear radiation, this even means a certain reduction of perceived proximity compared to a narrow-dispersing speaker w/o dipole pattern.

Are you trying to mount the case that the speaker and room treatment priorities are identical for recording studios and home playback?

Homes and recordings studios are not the same, from the point of an acoustician, and probably never will be. Nevertheless recording and mastering studios are the place where the majority of recordings we listen to at home, are judged and mastered, so keeping our home listening conditions at least roughly close to the average studio one, is a good idea when it comes to decoding the recording as it had been meant to sound.

That said, one of the main differences is that reflections and reverb in studio control rooms tend to be much lower in level and much more balanced in frequency/angle compared to homes, and the variation between different studios is surprisingly small if you compare it with differences between living rooms. So a narrow-dispersion speaker like an electrostat, particularly with even directivity over the frequency range, is one way to come closer to the studio conditions.

The argument is that they have deficiencies that make them less preferred by listeners.

I have organized controlled listening tests involving some stats (no current models in the last 10 years which I found to be improving), and cannot confirm this. Of course there is a pretty vast variation of quality among this speaker category, and obvious limits like dynamic bass capabilities would easily be identified. But if you ask specifically what participants liked in a candidate, almost certainly with an electrostat they would mention transparency, midrange clarity, image stability, non-fatiguing resolution and natural ambience/depth-of-field with acoustic recordings.

The 'science' that I am referring to includes listening tests for preference. But they are controlled.

Preference tests in the meaning of ´do you like the sound of A more than B?´, might be controlled and blind, but the results are from scientific point not worth more than the results of the Pepsi challenge. Well, a majority of participants likes product B over product A under given conditions. That does not allow generalized conclusions on which speaker type or which acoustic property was causing preference, and the result might flip the moment you change one crucial parameter (like channel setup or recording).

When people listen to loudspeakers in the audiophile manner, sighted and uncontrolled, their sound quality impressions are dominated by non-sonic factors.

I have done several controlled listening tests involving stats, and the majority of participants was not audiophile but pro audio. They knew nothing about price, brand reputation and did not care for things like elitism or working principle. They preferred and praised several aspects of the stats´ performance but criticized others, I have no reason to believe that bias was at play (if any, they were skeptical of traditional high end speakers with fancy veneer and piano lacquer).

I was surprised myself how well the electrostats performed overall in these tests, particularly under lively, reverberant conditions. Far better than I would have expected, given technical limitations and poor measurements. Interestingly, the speaker categories that consistently underperformed and met universally harsh criticism despite excellent technical results, were hybrid horns and hybrid electrodynamic/AMT concepts (in which both I had put high hopes).

When told this, ESL owners/defenders start cranking up another list of excuses aimed at discrediting the tests. Which is the typical action of fans of any product when told it doesn't do well in real tests.

Disclaimer: i am neither an ESL owner (have never been) nor defender, but was always reserved and skeptical of stats from theoretical and measurement point. Nevertheless, I had some positive experience with stats and found them surprisingly overperforming in controlled tests.

If you are referring to the Harman institutional tests again: I am not aware of more than one involving electrostats. And it is pretty clear from a neutral position that the particular flaws of this testing method, i.e. monaural ´dry´ recordings presented in a treated room, is a disadvantage for evenly directional speakers, which tend to reveal such properties of the recording (a dry monaural recordings sounds like a ´bird on the wire´ with such speakers which is a good thing from monitoring point).

My understanding is that there has not been any of such tests comparing speaker concepts for almost 20 years, and according to Dr. Olive the whole institution was internally not conducting speaker comparisons for a long time anymore, being eventually discontinued. You can make a wild guess why is that so. Overwhelming success in predicting people's buying preferences under real-market conditions and developing high-end speakers which dominate the market thanks to unbeatable sound quality, does not really count as a reasoning.

I hereby make a wild guess: we are about to occasion some creative excuses by a typical fan of a company that had failed to predict preference under real-world conditions, why the overwhelming majority of an evil consumer base bought products which had been identified as non-preferred in the tests.
 
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As an DIY ESL designer/builder, I would love to have a peek under the hood.

As someone being indifferent to ESL but interested in speaker technology, I would love to understand how this thing works as well. They seem to be a bit reserved when it comes to technical details, but particularly the aspect of driving up excursion and producing meaningful bass from a limited foil area, was catching my attention.
 
Ah it's the elitism and expense that is the issue. The same as with vinyl.

I'll leave your belief system with you, supported by your hand picked scientific proof.
These factors sound like they could almost all audiophile equipment. So “sour grapes” are why others don’t like them?
 
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