Electromagnetic Interference in Speaker Cables? (video)

[Wombat]

Let me tell you a short story. Long time ago, I used to have a pair of Dahlquist DQ10 loudspeakers, which had a potentiometer to regulate mid-hi level. With a friend of mine, we listened to some tracks with me tweaking the level until we were both satisfied. Differences were noticeable. Maybe 2 weeks later, I found that the potentiometer wasn't connected on both speakers. But we heard what we heard didn't we ? NO. We heard a difference where we expected to hear one. This is an example of placebo effect.

Biggest differences happen with loudspeakers (macro scale), for the rest it's only micro scale with cables having the smallest influence, assuming they don't have some weard construction as it sometimes happens with highend stuff. And so show you measurements.

The question now is why weren't the pots connected? Strange?

 

[Helicopter]

The audio engineer who helped me set up my in-wall speakers in my room told me to use seperate holes for mains and speaker wires, keep them 4 feet apart when practical, and try to cross mains wires and speaker wires at right angles or as close as practical. He also said these are good practices, but any violations of them to make construction easy probably wouldn't cause any problems.

I agree with John the mains cable in the test should be plugged into something under load. Really proving the theory we should probably dress the speaker cable with a neater coil and I would say run them parallel too. If you really want to dusprove the problem, you should focus on worst case, not just what Danny does.

If you are dressing up cables you might do this for less than 20 feet:

If your speaker cable is too long you might dress it up like this for up to 20 feet:

Intuitively, I suspect you won't hear a difference with proper methodology, but this is what I might have tested.

If you really want to break your methodology to sell snake oil, get gear that has mains noise like a bad tube and do a sighted A-B test. I bet most of the internet would hear an improvement from a little snakey stuff.

I guess I should stop using inductors for speaker cables then?

 

[roskodan]

Well as I see it, both Amir and Danny's videos are not proving anything and each is coming from completely different directions and positions.

Danny's video is a mess and Amir's uses a powered up IEC mains cable with zero current flowing through it, alongside a loopback speaker cable to the AP. That proves nothing. Hang an amplifier, or high current device off the mains IEC cable and place them alongside each other and please show us the results.

Everybody knows inductors in X/overs, filters/ PSUs etc are always placed at right angles (and spaced) and have been since Adam was a boy. We all know why. No re-discovering the wheel here.

Amir doesn't discuss at all, the orientation of the cables to one another (merely winds a random coil on his hand using both cables).

Nobody (not Amir or Danny) in either video, show the actual ability of that lovely tubular/helical woven speaker cable in various orientations/stretch to reduce or reject adjacent EM coupling or interference. Surely, that is what this entire exchange is about?

Well I found that strange too. But could be due to the following reasoning.

Clearly a power cord, of a amplifier outputting 100W, if placed alongside the interconnects feeding the signal to the amplifier, could lead to more mains noise. Depending on the interconnects' shielding and geometry.

However, unlike the noise picked up by interconnects, noise picked up by speaker cables does not get amplified.

But I agree, the test should have been made to simulate a real user case scenario.

 

[Vini darko]

..Insert popcorn eating gif..

 

[Deleted member 2944]

Amir,

You've been sucked into the GR lack of Research vortex. Get yourself out of there before it's too late.

Dave.

 

[Billy Budapest]

The audio engineer who helped me set up my in-wall speakers in my room told me to use seperate holes for mains and speaker wires, keep them 4 feet apart when practical, and try to cross mains wires and speaker wires at right angles or as close as practical. He also said these are good practices, but any violations of them to make construction easy probably wouldn't cause any problems.

I agree with John the mains cable in the test should be plugged into something under load. Really proving the theory we should probably dress the speaker cable with a neater coil and I would say run them parallel too. If you really want to dusprove the problem, you should focus on worst case, not just what Danny does.

If you are dressing up cables you might do this for less than 20 feet:

View attachment 114370

If your speaker cable is too long you might dress it up like this for up to 20 feet:

View attachment 114371

Intuitively, I suspect you won't hear a difference with proper methodology, but this is what I might have tested.

If you really want to break your methodology to sell snake oil, get gear that has mains noise like a bad tube and do a sighted A-B test. I bet most of the internet would hear an improvement from a little snakey stuff.

I guess I should stop using inductors for speaker cables then?

Love the Mega Blocks. If you used Duplo blocks instead, would it change the test result?

 

[Koeitje]

EDIT: You sure we can't lick live wire? I don't believe in measurements, I like to feel how many watts of power some of my stuff outputs..

ElectroBOOM collaboration? I'd watch Amir getting shocked .

 

[bogart]

Well I found that strange too. But could be due to the following reasoning.

Clearly a power cord, of a amplifier outputting 100W, if placed alongside the interconnects feeding the signal to the amplifier, could lead to more mains noise. Depending on the interconnects' shielding and geometry.

However, unlike the noise picked up by interconnects, noise picked up by speaker cables does not get amplified.

But I agree, the test should have been made to simulate a real user case scenario.

As @roskodan and @restorer-john have said, and as @dreite warned... "mythbusting" is a difficult effort. Since so many of the magical thinking and and technical-but-nonsensical concerns are by definition straw man arguments, videos like these are most effective if they use a "steel man" version of the theory. Although @milosz 's examples were funny, "remove diesel locomotives from your living room" is a fantastic example of putting the typical case in proper context. The residential living room is pretty benign compared to industrial environments.

I've noticed a common thread in ASR comments, saying "I have some technical background but not in electrical engineering" and confess that they were taken in by plausible sounding invented problems solved by specialty gear solutions. I think that persona is exactly the person these videos speak to - interested in a technical explanation, and able to digest it when offered. To best serve that audience, I wonder whether there's a group of ASR experts who would be able to collaborate on defining and testing the "steel man" cases of these myths. It might slow down the pace of videos but they'd be a completely robust argument.

I love the spirit of this series, and getting them to be completely definitive is a great goal.

 

[617]

Ironically the original video makes a good case for just avoiding inductors in speakers. Whenever I'm positioning the inductors in a crossover so they don't couple with each other I can't help but feel I'm working with stone age technology.

Also, Amir, debunking tweaky nonsense is a full time job. Scientific journals don't have time to devote columns to every wino and crackhead complaining about 5g and alien birds giving them bone spurs. Resist the urge to get pulled into these arguments. Already in this thread people are saying you proved very little... Which may be true, but who cares.

 

[abdo123]

Ironically the original video makes a good case for just avoiding inductors in speakers. Whenever I'm positioning the inductors in a crossover so they don't couple with each other I can't help but feel I'm working with stone age technology.

I'm still surprised that Digital crossover is not the norm. It's just incredibly effective it's criminal.

 

[phoenixsong]

Reminds me of the time when my family were buying our first turntable. The sales person at the store was telling us that giving the speaker cables some slack could improve the sound. Starting to wonder if he has super hearing after seeing these measurements- so it is really a thing! Just -130dB

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Do you know how many makers of high end speaker wire you just made your mortal enemy?

 

[Mnyb]

Hmm nice and more videos surely will increase the audience , but would not review be the next one ? I would like that.
this tit for tat with another channel has limits to its usefulness ? Btw subscribed to the YouTube channel .

Your and Erins channel are the only two audio related YouTube channels i subscribe to .
Are there any other that i should consider that has good quality content ?

 

[pma]

Yes, this only seems to attract popularity and there is not much science behind, rather pseudo-science. Sad but probably necessary to keep the machine going on.

 

[bo_knows]

Well as I see it, both Amir and Danny's videos are not proving anything and each is coming from completely different directions and positions.

Danny's video is a mess and Amir's uses a powered up IEC mains cable with zero current flowing through it, alongside a loopback speaker cable to the AP. That proves nothing. Hang an amplifier, or high current device off the mains IEC cable and place them alongside each other and please show us the results.

Everybody knows inductors in X/overs, filters/ PSUs etc are always placed at right angles (and spaced) and have been since Adam was a boy. We all know why. No re-discovering the wheel here.

Amir doesn't discuss at all, the orientation of the cables to one another (merely winds a random coil on his hand using both cables).

Nobody (not Amir or Danny) in either video, show the actual ability of that lovely tubular/helical woven speaker cable in various orientations/stretch to reduce or reject adjacent EM coupling or interference. Surely, that is what this entire exchange is about?

I see your point but what would be the worst-case scenario if the current was flowing through the mains cable? 60 Hertz hum over the speakers? If so that would be very audible, right? Just trying to learn here.

 

[Maki]

Speaker wires do act as inductors but in a normal domestic environment only tiny currents are induced in them, which won't impact sound quality of a stereo system.

There are some circumstances, however, where stronger currents could be induced. I would not, for example, drape my speaker wires over the 150 kva power distribution transformer that supplies my city block with power. Doing so might induce a bit of audible 60 Hz hum.

Also probably would be wise to site your speaker wires a reasonable distance away from the Large Hadron Collider, as there are some wicked AC magnetic fields there. Military rail guns should also be avoided if possible. Large electric motors, like those driving diesel-electric locomotives, could also cause trouble, so move any of those out of your living room.

Stay away from magnetars, too. They're big trouble.

Frankly I'm surprised anyone with even basic knowledge of physics would think that putting a large coil next to a speaker wire proves anything, except, don't put a large electromagnetic coil next to your speaker wires.

Clearly we need an audiophile LHC with a linear power supply and magic rocks. That will cut down the interference.

 

[fmplayer]

The question now is why weren't the pots connected? Strange?

Hoped someone would ask ...
That's the funny part: because I did it a couple of weeks before and forgot about it , but sshhh

 

[Lambda]

Danny claims noise can be inductive coupled and builds a exaggerated experiment to demonstrate the effect of inductive coupling.
Danny did only demonstrate inductive coupling not the real world impact.

Amir try's to debunks Danny's video by demonstrating the "real world impact"
But Amir fails to make an inductor or any inductive coupling, never tests the effekts of inductive coupling and only testes the effects of capacitive coupling.
Thereby Amir dose not tests Danny hypothesis.

Team "science" claims victory over team "research".

Pleas don't make it a team thing!
People tend to get irrationally attach to their "teams".

 

[fmplayer]

Danny claims noise can be inductive coupled and builds a exaggerated experiment to demonstrate the effect of inductive coupling.
Danny did only demonstrate inductive coupling not the real world impact.

Amir try's to debunks Danny's video by demonstrating the "real world impact"
But Amir fails to make an inductor or any inductive coupling, never tests the effekts of inductive coupling and only testes the effects of capacitive coupling.
Thereby Amir dose not tests Danny hypothesis.

Team "science" claims victory over team "research".

1 Well, if I'm right, capacitive coupling means there is a capacitor between one device and the other. If you consider the capacitance of some mm² of cable close to each other, it's at best negligible, what may be easily calculated and demonstrated.
2 Amir did the inductive coupling. Just watch the movie one more time
3 Well, personnally, I'm interested in what really matters, not in speculations of any kind

I wouldn't call @amirm team research, rather team 'engineeers', you know, the guys who take theory and translate it to the real world

 

[Lambda]

f you consider the capacitance of some mm² of cable close to each other, it's at best negligible, what may be easily calculated and demonstrated.

That's the only effect we saw in his video. How else would the signal "jump" from one wire to the other?

Oh yeah inductively... in layman's terms magnetically.
What makes a magnetic field?

According to mr.lorentz current

Amir did the inductive coupling. Just watch the movie one more time

So there was no current going trug the mains cable?

no current therefore no magnetic field and therefore no inductance

And even if.

The the current flowing in should be the same as the current flowing out so it cancels out.

Coiling an power cable dose not increase the inductance! (in differential mode)