Elac Navis ARB-51 and Bluesound Powernode 2i or KEF R3 and Hegel H120

[Tactica]

Hello fellow audiophiles. I'm contemplating on simplifying my living room system from a regular, wired home theater system to a more streamer/active setup. Please bare with me, as there is a few questions I would appreciate your collective help with

Current system:

AV Receiver: Marantz SR6010
Front speakers: Monitor Audio S1
Center speaker: Monitor Audio S Centre
Rear Speakers: Monitor Audio Radius 90
Television: LG OLED E6

The background:

I have been pondering about taking a more simpler approach with a stereo pair of active speakers like the Elac Navis ARB-51 or the KEF LS50 Wireless.

For these speakers I'd like to have some sort of streamer/transporter to connect my television into. I will be upgrading my LG E6 to an LG C9 later this year to get access to HDMI 2.1, VRR for video gaming, and would like to run all video signals through the television and pass audio to the Active Speakers through a streamer box either via TOSLINK or via HDMI. However, I'm not fully sure, if I need a HDMI input from the streamer, or would a TOSLINK be sufficient for a stereo setup for best possible audio quality? Multichannel is not needed obviously, but I'd like to make sure I get lossless stereo from PS4/PS5 games in the future.

I also want the streamer to be able to do AirPlay 2, Spotify Connect and Bluetooth for best possible wireless Tidal and Spotify control.

I've kinda narrowed down the new potential systems. Any feedback would be very helpful!

Active System

Speakers: Elac Navis ARB-51 or KEF LS50 Wireless
Streamer: Bluesound Powernode 2i (Only if HDMI is needed) or Bluesound Node 2i
Price: approx 2800 EUR

I kinda like the Elac's better on paper, as I could override the internal DAC's with an external one, and if driven fully analogue, I could impact the sound signature with an amplifier as well. I'm not sure if the Elac Discovery Connect box would be needed with the Bluesound Powernode 2i, if I run the speakers from there in "analogue mode".

The Kef's are what they are, always.

Any suggestions for a Tidal streamer apart from the Bluesound is appreciated!

Passive System

Speakers: KEF R3 or R300
Amplifier / Streamer: Hegel H90 or H120 or Similarly priced AVR from Marantz, Anthem etc.
Price: approx 4000 €

These loudspeakers would be a nice improvement over my current Monitor Audio's, and it would run me a lot cheaper than the Active system above, if I just run them with my current AV receiver. They would also be potentially expandable with R-series center speaker. Hegel has some very interesting streaming capable stereo amplifiers, which would pair well with the passive KEF's, but the price increaces significantly.

Am I lost here?

 

[Erik]

Hegel amplifiers are very overpriced for their poor performance.

The graph is from Stereoplay magazine.

 

[Tactica]

Hegel amplifiers are very overpriced for their poor performance.

The graph is from Stereoplay magazine.

Okay. I'll look deeper into it. Any recommendations then to fit the request? Stereo amplifier with an in build streamer and Bluetooth?

 

[Tactica]

I had a Hegel Rost that wouldn't jibe with my Tannoy XT6Fs, which supposedly measured at 90dB sensitivity. A terrific review of the XT8Fs with measurements showed that the latter dropped to a minimum impedance of 2.9ohms at around 100Hz. My best guess is that something similar is happening with my XT6Fs and that the Hegel simply does not cut it for this application. I upgraded to a Benchmark ABH2 and the difference was a bit shocking given that I wasn't expecting it despite it being the A friggin' HB2. I am fairly certain that the difference is in the power capabilities. We know the R3s need a ton power, so, personally, I would stay away from Hegel. They don't even cut it based on the wattage they already state. Sorry but 60W and 75W for the R3 is a horrible fit. Reread the R3 review and make sure you understand the measurements as much as possible because you should not have even been considering those Hegels.

Basically, what I have learned is to never buy anything for which I can't find measurements. The devil is in the details. If Hegel or other companies won't publish adequate specs, it's their loss.

Thank you. That is very insightful and valuable information! Unfortunately the Benchmark ABH2 is out of scope for my budget. I'm coming from integrated AVR's, so power amps and pre amps are a bit new to me. Didn't even consider the requirements on the R3's.

Looking at power amps in my price range, would something like Schiit Vidar/Aegir cut it? Or Parasound A23+ or PS Audio Stellar S300?

 

[AudioTodd]

I use Bluesound Node 2s and Vault 2s and really like how they work. They are hassle free and reasonably priced in my opinion compared to some of the “high end” alternatives. They have a TosLink input that has worked fine for me to the limited extent I’ve used it (I think @amirm had some trouble with one when measuring some bluesound product???). You can use the internal volume control and DAC, which I think is likely to be indistinguishable in double-blind testing, at least with the vast majority of listeners (I cannot say with any certainty it sounds different than my Auralic Vega or DAC3 HGC or DAC3 B). I use fixed output mode and the coax digital out into an outboard DAC and a line stage for volume control if the DAC I’m using isn’t equipped with one for various reasons, by the way, but the internal volume may suit you just fine.

if you want to use the fixed output mode and a line stage or passive volume control to feed a power amp or active speakers, I can recommend the Schiit Saga based on @amirm’s measurements and my experience with mine. I also have the new Saga+ and think it is just as good, as far as I can tell, as the original one measured here. I think it is a real bargain and gives you a really nice compact remote with the tactile feel a device app cannot provide.

I’m hooked on the AHB2s, but it’s not in the “budget” category for most people here. I do not have much experience at all with Class D amps, but there seem to be some really impressive options at good prices based on measurements I have seen.

I’m not familiar with the speakers you are considering so I can’t say much about them and the ones I know well are not terribly affordable or are probably not suitable for your intended use (my Magnepans for instance).

All that said, I’d bet a Node 2/Saga + or S/Good measuring Class D amp plus your choice of speakers would make a really enjoyable setup at a decent price!

 

[Tactica]

Had a listen of KEF R3's today at a local Hifi retailer. I spent considerable time testing analogue stereo setups with their Hegel lineup from H90, H120 to Röst and even H190.

@franspambot was absolutely correct. The R3's lacked most of the lower register with the entry level Hegels. R3's weren't opened up to their full potential until we hooked up the Hegel 190 to them. So they really performed poorly on the lower wattage amps, but oh boy when we finally gave the power to them, what a speaker!

We also had a go with the Marantz PM7000N, and whilst the low end on the R3's was noticeably better than on the H120/Röst, the clarity and detail was cleaner and more holographic on the Hegel.

I also tested the Revel M16's as an alternative, and those speakers sounded great with all of the Hegels, as the load was much easier.

He also drove the R3's with a Technics SU-G30 Network Streamer, and that drove the KEF's beautifully as well. The unit would be used, and similarly priced than the Cambridge combo.
Another pair for the R3's was the Cambridge CXA81 + CXN V2 Streamer. The CXA81 was slightly behind the Technics in sound quality, but the R3's full freguency range was there.

So now I'm between these two options.

 

[Tactica]

I would still be careful with the Hegel H190. It matches in terms of the 150W at 8ohms but what I am most worried about is that impedance drop to 3ohms that Amir shows in his review of the R3. How well does the Hegel handle anything lower than 4ohms? Can it do 2ohms reasonably well? Remember that "power" in amplifiers is complicated, you need to match the speaker at lower impedance levels too if they speakers demand it. Unfortunately most speaker and amplifier makers don't give you those details. This is why ASR is invaluable.

"2*150W in 8 ohms 2*250W in 4 ohms" is much to vague a statement. Does it have enough juice at 3ohms?

More than likely a higher end Hegel can handle it. But we don't know unless it gets measured or they show us all the measurements. You could still be missing something. For me, I would never buy anything at that price without knowing full well that it does everything that I need it too. Maybe you can email Hegel.

I'm not purchasing a Hegel, that's just what they had on show, and between the different models they were able to demonstrate the need for more power to unlock the full potential of the KEF R3's.

 

[Tactica]

No I didn't. I wanted to find a setup that I be happy with and start with the R3's. Entry level Hegels weren't cutting it. I'm going with the Cambridge CXA81 for now (80W RMS into 8 Ohms, 120W RMS into 4 Ohms, as they claim), and with the Cambridge CXV (V2) Streamer. I have the option to upgrade the components with potential mono blocks like Vidar/Aegir.

 

[Trouble Maker]

I have the KEF LS50 Wireless and have tossed around the idea of doing a 5.1 setup using some other passive KEF as other channels, maybe the passive LS50. I think I would definitely do the passive LS50 (or maybe even another W) as the center, but maybe something smaller for the surrounds. The brick wall I've hit is how to turn on LW50Ws without having to manually do it every time. There doesn't seem to be anything I can find for auto on from signal. I guess you could get some universal remote (like Logitech Harmony) and have it turn them on and switch to whatever input you are using from the receiver when the receiver on? I'm not sure if there are dedicated remote commands per input. The remote supplied as well as the top panel simply cycles through the inputs.

I wouldn't take this as the gospel, but it seems like (newer firmaware, which if you bought new ones it would be updated) have individual commands by input. https://www.tivocommunity.com/commu...e-code-for-kef-ls50-wireless-speakers.563664/

 

[Senior NEET Engineer]

No subwoofer?

 

[Trouble Maker]

I would think part of the benefit of an active speaker with streaming capability is you don't need any external box. Maybe I'm missing the point of the Bluesound box. The KEF LS50W can stream Tidal (as well as Spotify) directly without the need of any external boxes.
https://tidal.com/kef
I also don't really get why the Elacs don't have some streaming capability built in and you have to buy another box and have somewhere to put it.

If you are just running stereo I would just run some digital signal out from the TV to the KEFs, or analog to the Elacs (they only take analog in?), if you go that route. Just make sure whatever TV you get will do that. IIRC on some TVs it will either only be stereo and not 5.1 or maybe it will not do it for all sources? I can't remember, and I've not looked into it in a while. So, the moral is just check that it will do what you wann.

 

[idiomatically]

I have a simple lounge room stereo setup that I love that is pretty similar to what you are thinking of.

I use the Elac Navis ARB-51's, these things are superb. Really really happy with them.

My Tidal / Roon / AppleTV streaming is a Raspberry Pi 4 running RoPieee connected to a JDS Labs Eldac 2 that outputs to a Schiit Jotunheim and than XLR out to the Elacs. This also gives my wife Spotify connect, as she can't be bothered with Roon.

The Jotunheim also has the Phono stage module in it for my ATH LP7 turntable. One of my wifes favourite things is to put Tidal Video playlists on the TV and change the audio output on the AppleTV from the ARC Bose 700 Soundbar setup to the Elacs via the Pie easily.

Personally I would not spend a lot on a Bluesound node 2i, for less money you can get a RP4, a good DAC, decent cables and a Roon subscription. My mates were really pushing me to the Bluesound as that is what they had, but since hearing my setup they admit they wouldn't buy one again if they had their time over. They were just intimidated by the idea of having to setup the RP4 but really its a 10 minute job.

On a side note I do own the KEF LS50 Wireless as well, but they are at work in my office as I wanted something for easy streaming for the staff in my immediate team and they love them.. The Elacs sound better but they also get better sources so it might not be fair of me to say that. I just didn't want the "smarts" of the KEFs and I needed XLR inputs at home so the Elacs win there.

 

[andrewch]

I was also considering passive speakers using two Hypex NC400 modules or the active Elac Navis ARB-51.

I already have a DAC, the Sabaj D5, which I use via balanced XLR with my Focal Elex headphones. There is XLR line out on the Sabaj for speakers too.

My calculation for passive speakers:

Hypex NC400 x 2: $1300
KEF R3 local offer: $1300 + cost for stands

This makes the KEF + Hypex NC400 about the same price as the Elac Navis ARB-51 (with stands purchased).

Hard choices right there. Any opinions are appreciated.

For streamer I will use Chromecast Audio connected via optical toslink cable to the Sabaj D5, streaming Tidal Hi-Fi.

 

[stevenswall]

I like the richer lows of the Navis compared to the KEF LS50s and have heard both. The LS50s though I think is technically more accurate, and has some additional features.

In this case though, since your alternative passive system is a larger three way, I'd go for that since it should beat out the Elac, or aim for the floorstanding Elac Navis (ARF-51.)

The one thing that made me return my pair was port chuffing. I went from the Hivi DIY 3.1 though a Genelec 1031, Elac Navis, JBL 308, Mackie HR824 ($700, borders on my threshold for hissing nearfield, better than any of this price to performance wise I'd say for home theater if you can find a pair for $700 used,) Kali Audio IN-8 (More hiss, but I would be fine with it in a living room, not nearfield, and it's a three way with a coincident driver), Phantom Reactor, and now settled on a Genelec 8260.

*If you plan on building out a surround sound system, I'd go with the Kali IN-8, 4 of them for $1600, two woofers for $1200, and decide if you need the center, which would still only get you to $3,200. I run stuff from a MiniDSP, but don't have a recommendation for regular amps or a MiniDSP that can do surround sound.) I really, really like my Genelec 8260 setup, but am now getting an OLED TV and if I end up going the theater router, will be building that with Kali stuff as Genelec would be cost prohibitive, even used.

 

[KML]

I would still be careful with the Hegel H190. It matches in terms of the 150W at 8ohms but what I am most worried about is that impedance drop to 3ohms that Amir shows in his review of the R3. How well does the Hegel handle anything lower than 4ohms? Can it do 2ohms reasonably well? Remember that "power" in amplifiers is complicated, you need to match the speaker at lower impedance levels too if the speakers demand it. Unfortunately most speaker and amplifier makers don't give you those details. Neither did in this case. We only know of the dip because of good reviews. This is why ASR is invaluable.

"2*150W in 8 ohms 2*250W in 4 ohms" is much to vague a statement. Does it have enough juice at 3ohms?

More than likely a higher end Hegel can handle it. But we don't know unless it gets measured or they show us all the measurements. You could still be missing something. For me, I would never buy anything at that price without knowing full well that it does everything that I need it to. Maybe you can email Hegel and ask.

Its able to deliver 650w+ dynamically into 2ohms.