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Elac Debut Reference DBR-62 Speaker Review

KaiserSoze

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Dude, sorry but what? Have you heard the Debut 2 series? Just no. It's a Debut 1 edited to appeal to reviewers who found the original too dark, despite that being completely untrue. It's actually worse.
The Debut Reference is just a better speaker with better drivers.

That said yeah, what's the point of the floorstander? If the bookshelf could use one thing it's more surface for better bass punch. But this thing not only crosses at 90Hz where this doesn't really help,it also only gains a single dB of efficieny and 2 Hz in bass spec.

Seriously, just a 2.5 way with a 2nd 6.1/2 incher crossed in like 250Hz or so and that would be excellent.

As it is, that floorstander seems like a total waste of money.

Dude,

Please rest assured that I was able to decipher your valley-girl-speak without inordinate difficulty. I have certainly heard the Debut 2.0 series, both the bookshelf versions and the DF62 floorstander. To my ear they all sounded quite good except that small bookshelf speakers don't ever really sound good to me unless augmented by a subwoofer (or else by way of comparison with other small bookshelf speakers).

Presumably there are differences in the drivers (for the Debut 2.0 vs. the Reference) as you suggest, but even if so this does not necessarily translate to a significant difference in sound quality. Your main argument is that the apparently better bass capability of the DF62 is moot because the crossover point is 90 Hz where it "doesn't really help". I will argue otherwise, but first there is a point that I need to make more clear. My dismissal of the potential advantage of the floorstanding Debut Reference speaker vs. the bookshelf Debut Reference speaker was driven primarily by the fact that the combined swept volume of the two 5.25" woofers in the floorstanding Debut Reference speaker is not better than the swept volume of the single 6.5" woofer in the bookshelf Debut Reference speaker. Let us be careful not to confuse this with what we see when comparing the Debut 2.0 DF62 to either of the Debut Reference speakers. The combined swept volume of the two woofers in DF62 is twice the swept volume for either of the two Debut Reference speakers. (Of course this applies only at the bass frequencies where it applies, which in the truest sense is through most the bass region reaching into the upper bass notwithstanding that the crossover point is 90 Hz.)

You say that the implied advantage is moot because the crossover point is 90 Hz, where "it doesn't really help". The argument you make assumes (indisputably) that a subwoofer will be used. For some people this assumption is perfectly reasonable; for other people it is not reasonable. A lot of people who buy a subwoofer eventually want to get rid of it and wish they had bought speakers that didn't require a subwoofer. There is also this: the prospect of being content with the DF62 without spending another $500 on a subwoofer is a significantly better prospect vs. the prospect of being content with the Reference bookshelf speaker (or the Reference floorstander) without spending the extra $500. With respect to value, this is a very meaningful difference.

And even when a subwoofer is used the advantages do not completely vanish. The dual woofers crossed over at 90 Hz make a significant contribution to sound power well above 90 Hz, with or without a subwoofer. And the integration with the subwoofer will be better even if you don't think that there is any imperfection in the subwoofer integration with the pair of small bookshelf speakers that are spatially distant from the subwoofer. The advantage includes the ability to set the subwoofer crossover point lower by at least an octave than you would with the DBR62. (With the bookshelf speakers I would probably set the crossover point above 150 Hz if the subwoofer or the receiver will permit.)

That's all I've got to say about it. You may have the final word.
 

Benedium

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Anyone follow the user manual's recommendation to point speakers straight ahead? It also says toe in if speakers are far apart, which I assume means further apart from each other than they are from the listener.

When I first got the speakers I had them totally toed in to my ears and i have to say it just sounded weird. Sorry for my unscientific-ness.

So I kept toeing outwards and testing until I found the soundstage most natural with the speakers pointed straight ahead and almost zero toe-in. In fact at that point, I think the speakers 'disappeared'. My speakers are 1.7m apart and I am seated almost 2m away.
 

daftcombo

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Anyone follow the user manual's recommendation to point speakers straight ahead? It also says toe in if speakers are far apart, which I assume means further apart from each other than they are from the listener.

When I first got the speakers I had them totally toed in to my ears and i have to say it just sounded weird. Sorry for my unscientific-ness.

So I kept toeing outwards and testing until I found the soundstage most natural with the speakers pointed straight ahead and almost zero toe-in. In fact at that point, I think the speakers 'disappeared'. My speakers are 1.7m apart and I am seated almost 2m away.
We had the same experience during the listening session at @renaudrenaud 's with @VintageFlanker , without knowing about the manual recommendations.

Pointing straight ahead was way better for imaging and tonality.

See report here:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...rence-dbr-62-speaker-review.12232/post-443998
 

Newman

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Within the Elac Debut series, they have the floorstanding DFR52. Does anybody know or offer an educated guess if they would be an improvement over the DBR62 and/or offer similar value for money?
In Australia they cost 240% of the DBR62, I think the same applies in Germany.

The same tweeter and bass driver is used, and, despite 3 of the bass driver vs 1, the rated bass response is 42 Hz vs 44 Hz for DBR62. So the bass range is not extended to any great degree.

The power rating is less than 1 dB higher, yet the sensitivity is rated 1 dB lower, so not much on offer there, on paper.

In theory, using one bass driver as a midrange might improve the midrange quality by relieving it of any duties below 90 Hz, but that is unproven.

The bass might be a touch cleaner with less distortion, sharing the duties below 90 Hz between 2 drivers.

Conclusion: I would take the DBR62 and pocket the 140%: it could be put to better use.
 

Foxxy

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Dude,

Please rest assured that I was able to decipher your valley-girl-speak without inordinate difficulty. I have certainly heard the Debut 2.0 series, both the bookshelf versions and the DF62 floorstander. To my ear they all sounded quite good except that small bookshelf speakers don't ever really sound good to me unless augmented by a subwoofer (or else by way of comparison with other small bookshelf speakers).

Presumably there are differences in the drivers (for the Debut 2.0 vs. the Reference) as you suggest, but even if so this does not necessarily translate to a significant difference in sound quality. Your main argument is that the apparently better bass capability of the DF62 is moot because the crossover point is 90 Hz where it "doesn't really help". I will argue otherwise, but first there is a point that I need to make more clear. My dismissal of the potential advantage of the floorstanding Debut Reference speaker vs. the bookshelf Debut Reference speaker was driven primarily by the fact that the combined swept volume of the two 5.25" woofers in the floorstanding Debut Reference speaker is not better than the swept volume of the single 6.5" woofer in the bookshelf Debut Reference speaker. Let us be careful not to confuse this with what we see when comparing the Debut 2.0 DF62 to either of the Debut Reference speakers. The combined swept volume of the two woofers in DF62 is twice the swept volume for either of the two Debut Reference speakers. (Of course this applies only at the bass frequencies where it applies, which in the truest sense is through most the bass region reaching into the upper bass notwithstanding that the crossover point is 90 Hz.)

You say that the implied advantage is moot because the crossover point is 90 Hz, where "it doesn't really help". The argument you make assumes (indisputably) that a subwoofer will be used. For some people this assumption is perfectly reasonable; for other people it is not reasonable. A lot of people who buy a subwoofer eventually want to get rid of it and wish they had bought speakers that didn't require a subwoofer. There is also this: the prospect of being content with the DF62 without spending another $500 on a subwoofer is a significantly better prospect vs. the prospect of being content with the Reference bookshelf speaker (or the Reference floorstander) without spending the extra $500. With respect to value, this is a very meaningful difference.

And even when a subwoofer is used the advantages do not completely vanish. The dual woofers crossed over at 90 Hz make a significant contribution to sound power well above 90 Hz, with or without a subwoofer. And the integration with the subwoofer will be better even if you don't think that there is any imperfection in the subwoofer integration with the pair of small bookshelf speakers that are spatially distant from the subwoofer. The advantage includes the ability to set the subwoofer crossover point lower by at least an octave than you would with the DBR62. (With the bookshelf speakers I would probably set the crossover point above 150 Hz if the subwoofer or the receiver will permit.)

That's all I've got to say about it. You may have the final word.
First off, sorry for the Valley girl speak. It's just, no, maybe they are fine. A lot of speakers are fine. But compared to studio monitors and headphones I love, they are not. I just find them lacking in too many ways.
Also, I think we have a misunderstanding. Of course having woofers helps with gettin lower sub integration because it reduces strain on the midwoofer, and a model with two 6 1/2 inchers would be great. But in the Debut Reference, that's just not there.
And in terms of the 90Hz crossover, my complaint was the punch in the upper bass with bookshelves. At around 150Hz the two woofers are already 6dB below the mid in terms of contribution. That's just not what I want from my bass, I want a homogenous radiation surface from 250-80 down. And ideally, in dual 8 inch.

Cya around. :)
 

Chromatischism

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First off, sorry for the Valley girl speak. It's just, no, maybe they are fine. A lot of speakers are fine. But compared to studio monitors and headphones I love, they are not. I just find them lacking in too many ways.
Also, I think we have a misunderstanding. Of course having woofers helps with gettin lower sub integration because it reduces strain on the midwoofer, and a model with two 6 1/2 inchers would be great. But in the Debut Reference, that's just not there.
And in terms of the 90Hz crossover, my complaint was the punch in the upper bass with bookshelves. At around 150Hz the two woofers are already 6dB below the mid in terms of contribution. That's just not what I want from my bass, I want a homogenous radiation surface from 250-80 down. And ideally, in dual 8 inch.

Cya around. :)
Maybe these? Or these.
 

StevenEleven

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I‘ve be following the thread with interest. Thanks to everyone for your comments.

@Benedium, I toe in about 10 or 15 degrees with the DBR62. TBH, they sound fine with no toe-in, but it bugs me visually. : ) @VintageFlanker and @daftcombo and @renaudrenaud, thanks for your listening impressions, great stuff. I am in general agreement, anyway—less rather than more toe-in, for both imaging and tonality.

After epic sessions with REW and dealing with room modes and getting all of my channels to match (I have an Infinity RC263 center channel) I have broad-based EQ for the ELACs + 1 dB at 2.5kHz and 4 kHz, and the Infinity center at -1 dB at 2.5 kHz and 4 kHz and -2 dB at 10 kHz, if you want to get an idea of how the tonality compares in my room. The Infinity center cost me a pittance during one of Harman’s blowout sales, and delivers the goods, so the plan is for me to keep it until someone shows me there is a better center channel that does not cost a fortune (by my standards).

Just to offend the peanut gallery I am using my old Pioneer BS22s for surrounds.

I concur with those who say that the bass of the DBR62 is very satisfying, but in my view this will in part depend on your particular room and what you have done to smooth out room modes. I have family that asks me to turn off the subwoofers sometimes, or for late night listening I turn off (or actually switch out) the subwoofers (either way I have made a lot of effort to smooth out a couple of very large room modes). The only time I feel like I am missing something without the subwoofers is with very modern recordings where the low bass (50 hz and lower I’d say) is represented in full in the recording. I cross over at 80 hz.

@JoachimStrobel, I feel like any discussion about whether the DFR62 would be better or would be worth the extra cost may be overly speculative until someone both measures them and listens to them. Life is full of surprises. It’s a great question, but I am not sure we have enough information to give a good answer.:) At least the DBR62s are a known quantity (thanks to @amirm and the ASR community), so for now, that’s where I’d put my money personally.

@Foxxy I had the same feeling as you, very hopeful and then very pleased that the DBR62s were not just another adventure down the audiophile rabbit hole. I listen with honest delight in the music as I write this. And they’re good enough so REW and a Umik-1 were kind of the next logical step, at least for me.

Thanks to @hardisj also for all of his value-added work as well.

Just my thoughts after reading through the thread for a while. Everyone’s thoughts and contributions are truly value added for me as an owner of these speakers. Thanks to all.
 
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Benedium

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I‘ve be following the thread with interest. Thanks to everyone for your comments.

@Benedium, I toe in about 10 or 15 degrees with the DBR62. TBH, they sound fine with no toe-in, but it bugs me visually. : ) @VintageFlanker and @daftcombo and @renaudrenaud, thanks for your listening impressions, great stuff. I am in general agreement, anyway—less rather than more toe-in, for both imaging and tonality...

... I concur with those who say that the bass of the DBR62 is very satisfying, but in my view this will in part depend on your particular room and what you have done to smooth out room modes. I have family that asks me to turn off the subwoofers sometimes, or for late night listening I turn off the subwoofers (either way I have made a lot of effort to smooth out a couple of very large room modes). The only time I feel like I am missing something without the subwoofers is with very modern recordings where the low bass (50 hz and lower I’d say) is represented in full in the recording. I cross over at 80 hz.

Hi again StevenEleven :) Glad you are enjoying these speakers too.
I don't know if it's maybe because my denon avr-x3600h isn't powerful enough for these speakers, but I find volume, soundstage and overall sound quality very inconsistent at low to medium volumes under 70db (i think), especially for movies. Like I can hear the volume drop drastically in the same sentence of a movie dialogue as if the av receiver is struggling and stumbling and later catching up. I am currently only set up for 4.1ch, without a center speaker and have my dbr62 L/R speakers crossed over to my svs pb1000 subwoofer at 80hz. But I am now exploring setting a higher crossover frequency. Main issue now is exactly what frequency to set my crossover.

So there is no question to me these are really power hungry speakers by my standards, maybe unsuitable for most people's home theatre use unless u have mid to high end powerful av receivers.

Following a post by KaiserSoze recommending crossovers above 150hz, i changed my crossover to 150hz and it seems to make a huge difference. Will keep testing with different crossovers and different content/sources before I share again. I'm sorry if I'm not helping on the science front but hope it's still useful for some.
 
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Chromatischism

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My issue with higher crossovers is that too much sound that should be coming from your speakers is sent to your subs. Even an 80 Hz crossover puts the lower range of male vocals to the subs as it rolls off at 24 dB / octave, making them begin to sound chestier. It's always worth experimenting, though.
 

StevenEleven

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Hi again StevenEleven :) Glad you are enjoying these speakers too.
I don't know if it's maybe because my denon avr-x3600h isn't powerful enough for these speakers, but I find volume, soundstage and overall sound quality very inconsistent at low to medium volumes under 70db (i think), especially for movies. Like I can hear the volume drop drastically in the same sentence of a movie dialogue as if the av receiver is struggling and stumbling and later catching up. I am currently only set up for 4.1ch, without a center speaker and have my dbr62 L/R speakers crossed over to my svs pb1000 subwoofer at 80hz. But I am now exploring setting a higher crossover frequency. Main issue now is exactly what frequency to set my crossover.

So there is no question to me these are really power hungry speakers by my standards, maybe unsuitable for most people's home theatre use unless u have mid to high end powerful av receivers.

Following a post by KaiserSoze recommending crossovers above 150hz, i changed my crossover to 150hz and it seems to make a huge difference. Will keep testing with different crossovers and different content/sources before I share again. I'm sorry if I'm not helping on the science front but hope it's still useful for some.

Some thoughts: First the obvious, make sure your speakers and sub are wired with matching polarity. Otherwise you will go nuts. ; ). (I‘ve been there!)

Second, I really, truly think your receiver is way more than adequate.

Third, does your receiver have a night mode? This can dynamically compress high dynamic range material at low volumes.

Fourth, a center channel speaker designed for speech and intelligibility and that fully utilizes the surroumd sound algorithms of your receiver may be a revelation for you.

Fifth, but not least importantly, have you checked for room modes? All you need is a umik-1 and a windows or Mac laptop and REW and some time to burn figuring out how to use it. But a room mode could cause sudden large drop-offs and peaks centered at a few frequencies, particularly from I‘d guess about 160 hz on down (just based on my limited experience). At that point you will see very graphically your room modes. Quite likely big-uns. Seems like everybody’s got ‘em. They can often be stubborn and large. My apologies if you already know all of this.

Moving stuff around, including your sub, or getting a second sub, or digital EQ, or other stuff can help deal with room modes. In my case I had a 6 dB peak around 160 hz, a big dip around 72 hz, and then a ginormous peak in the lower frequencies, 20 to 50 hertz, such that a pin drop sounded like a nuclear explosion. Smoothing that stuff out was hugely helpful to me. Just with REW be prepared for the shock of what even a nice pair of speakers does in a real-world room. After your first look at a graph you will likely break out in a cold sweat and need a stiff drink.

Finally, there is no requirement that you like the DBR62s! ;)
 
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Benedium

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My issue with higher crossovers is that too much sound that should be coming from your speakers is sent to your subs. Even an 80 Hz crossover puts the lower range of male vocals to the subs as it rolls off at 24 dB / octave, making them begin to sound chestier. It's always worth experimenting, though.

Yup gonna keep experimenting. When I had the speakers pointed straight ahead and once they 'disappear' with optimal soundstage, the subwoofer also seems to integrate better. Then the subwoofer too seems to 'disappear' even with 150hz crossover.
 

Benedium

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Some thoughts: First the obvious, make sure your speakers and sub are wired with matching polarity. Otherwise you will go nuts. ; ). (I‘ve been there!)

Second, I really, truly think your receiver is way more than adequate.

Third, does your receiver have a night mode? This can dynamically compress high dynamic range material at low volumes.

Fourth, a center channel speaker designed for speech and intelligibility and that fully utilizes the surroumd sound algorithms of your receiver may be a revelation for you.

Fifth, but not least importantly, have you checked for room modes? All you need is a umik-1 and a windows or Mac laptop and some time to burn figuring out how to use it. But a room mode could cause sudden large drop-offs and peaks centered at a few frequencies, particularly from I‘d guess about 160 hz on down (just based on my limited experience). At that point you will see very graphically your room modes. Quite likely big-uns. Seems like everybody’s got ‘em. They can often be stubborn and large. My apologies if you already know all of this.

Moving stuff around, including your sub, or getting a second sub, or digital EQ, or other stuff can help deal with room modes. In my case I had a 6 dB peak around 160 hz, a big dip around 72 hz, and then a ginormous peak in the lower frequencies, 20 to 50 hertz, such that a pin drop sounded like a nuclear explosion. Smoothing that stuff out was hugely helpful to me. Just with REW be prepared for the shock of what even a nice pair of speakers does in a real-world room. After your first look at a graph you will likely break out in a cold sweat and need a stiff drink.

Finally, there is no requirement that you like the DBR62s! ;)

Thanks StevenEleven. I'm relieved that the x3600h isn't the problem. I too hope one day I will be diligent enough to learn and use REW and umik1 :)
 

0800 Dub

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Just got them. Say what you want, the WAF on them is super high, noone should have problems having those in the living room. The structured oak veneer imitation is super nice and prevents there being any feeling of cheap surface.

Please can this sexist drivel about "Wife Acceptance Factor" die already? Do you want this hobby to be inclusive or do you want to assume everyone in this hobby is a middle-aged man? I'm sick of this patronising crap.

Just say "they look attractive" or something FFS please.

About the speakers, they sound good. I'm glad I upgraded to them and a Yamaha A-S301 amp from my previous setup of Monitor Audio Bronze 2s and a Cambridge Audio AXA35. Thank you to Audio Science Review for the measurement work that is being done that helps people to make more informed decisions.
 
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Benedium

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Third, does your receiver have a night mode? This can dynamically compress high dynamic range material at low volumes.

You were right StevenEleven! I found a Loud Management feature under my denon x3600h Audio settings.

After turning it off, my elac dbr62 finally behaves normally and predictably at lower volumes. Thank you so much... again.
 
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Haint

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Please can this sexist drivel about "Wife Acceptance Factor" die already? Do you want this hobby to be inclusive or do you want to assume everyone in this hobby is a middle-aged man? I'm sick of this patronising crap.

Just say "they look attractive" or something FFS please.

About the speakers, they sound good. I'm glad I upgraded to them and a Yamaha A-S301 amp from my previous setup of Monitor Audio Bronze 2s and a Cambridge Audio AXA35. Thank you to Audio Science Review for the measurement work that is being done that helps people to make more informed decisions.

Come'on guy, no one's genuinely offended by such a benignly flippant colloquialism, certainly not to the level it's acting as any kind of gate keeper to the hobby. I'm not sure why/how to get more women into the hobby, but I'm 100% confident a grand total of 0 have been scared off by the use of WAF.
 

Tarachii

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Please can this sexist drivel about "Wife Acceptance Factor" die already? Do you want this hobby to be inclusive or do you want to assume everyone in this hobby is a middle-aged man? I'm sick of this patronising crap.

Just say "they look attractive" or something FFS please.

About the speakers, they sound good. I'm glad I upgraded to them and a Yamaha A-S301 amp from my previous setup of Monitor Audio Bronze 2s and a Cambridge Audio AXA35.

Hah. I am personally amused by the esoteric usage of WAF in the community if it's tongue-in-cheek, but you're right, men should consider talking as if there are more than just guys around if they ever want the hobby to be inclusive. I'm a queer woman who's married to a woman, and honestly it was much harder for me to convince my ex-boyfriend to forgo a soundbar, and instead incorporate some basic Andrew Jones' Pioneer speakers into his space, than it was to sell my wife on the importance having good sound. She enjoys watching good tv shows and movies, and she implicitly trusted me, even though I still took the time to explain what having good speakers would mean for our space, because hey, she's a rational human being who's capable of sharing in a buying decision. Communication, and not simply making assumptions doesn't hurt.

Regarding the Elac DFR52s, I was patient and able to find a pair selling for $838 new because the retailer was trying to rid of overstock. I got the Elac Reference center similarly for $249. I had purchased a SVS sb12-nsd sub already and paired these with them, preferring to set the crossover at 60 hz in my space with minimal toe in. Crossing them over at 80 hz, the bass didn't sound as tight and smooth when listening to music, but is probably fine for an action movie. These floorstanders, and most likely all floorstanders with woofers smaller than 8 inches, needs subs, or I at least prefer listening with a sub. I'm still tinkering with placement, and considering sound treatment for my NYC apartment to address problematic room modes. I'm aiming for a wide soundstage and sense of effortless transparency in my sound, and may not get it without an integrated amp (I'm currently running them with a Denon AVR-X2500H). I was able to purchase a pair of Elac Debut B6s off Craigslist for $70, and now use them as my surrounds. I don't regret getting the DFR52s because when I A/B tested them with the Debut B6s, the floorstanders sounded better in the ways they were advertised as being better. The DFR52s at the price I got them for were worth it, if not solely for the fact that I would have needed to spend hundreds for good speaker stands (or learn to make my own), to get a similarly good sound out of the DBR-62 bookshelves. Also due to the virtue of their form factor, which may be more attractive to people with a limited budget looking for an audio setup in a smaller space, they're better sellers than the floorstanders, and less likely to go on sale, other than on Black Friday or until Elac comes out with a Debut Reference 2.0

The measurements and review here, as well as this review
helped inform my decision to seek out these Elacs.

Take my feedback with a grain of salt though, as I'm no audiophile with a degree in sound engineering or extensive experience auditioning high end gear.
 

VintageFlanker

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Please can this sexist drivel about "Wife Acceptance Factor" die already? Do you want this hobby to be inclusive or do you want to assume everyone in this hobby is a middle-aged man? I'm sick of this patronising crap.
At last, someone sayin it.:)
I'm afraid yes: the hobby must be around 75% of middle aged men, most of them considering to represent 100% of audiophiles. I'm 31, I live with my 12 years old daughter and I've never been married, nor I plan to do so. I don't give a fuck about WAF. There are just beautiful speakers and ugly ones to me.

The DFR-52 has been measured by Stereo DE this month:
001865-0.jpg

(Seems a bit uneven to me)
 
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Foxxy

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Come'on guy, no one's genuinely offended by such a benignly flippant colloquialism, certainly not to the level it's acting as any kind of gate keeper to the hobby. I'm not sure why/how to get more women into the hobby, but I'm 100% confident a grand total of 0 have been scared off by the use of WAF.
This. I'm sorry if this has offended someone. It merely is tongue in cheek for the dynamic that the audiophile person would be willing to setup a literal audio coffin and the more room aesthetics focused person would seriously fight you on that issue.
 

Shazb0t

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Please can this sexist drivel about "Wife Acceptance Factor" die already? Do you want this hobby to be inclusive or do you want to assume everyone in this hobby is a middle-aged man? I'm sick of this patronising crap.

Just say "they look attractive" or something FFS please.

About the speakers, they sound good. I'm glad I upgraded to them and a Yamaha A-S301 amp from my previous setup of Monitor Audio Bronze 2s and a Cambridge Audio AXA35. Thank you to Audio Science Review for the measurement work that is being done that helps people to make more informed decisions.
75444a48ed7e97127e0e1c9ac09c90e28201ae60_00.jpg
 
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