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Effect of Loudspeaker Directivity Compared with In-room Measurements

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Kvalsvoll

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LOL ... man, oh, man...

Just FWIW, I have been testing drive units and designing my own speakers for the last 10-11 years. All of the data has been made publicly available. Using Klippel gear, no less. Here's an example of a transducer test from 2011.

I've tested a lot of speakers over the years but, I didn't start publishing anechoic loudspeaker data until around May of last year. And I didn't get the NFS until recently.


I just wanted to clear things up, though, so people don't think I'm new to this. I've been at this for a good while now. :)

Bad choice of words from my part, I certainly did not mean to imply that you were "new" in the meaning just-found-out-about-measuring-speakers, rather than a combination of both improved technical quality of those measurements, and more visibility and acceptance in the audio world.

I have read some of your reviews, and part from technical knowledge to know how to do it, I see lots of effort put in, to make sure the data is truly representative. This takes some time to do properly.

And there are others, too, doing reviews with measurements. Some magazines actually do have measurements. High-Fidelity from Denmark did measurements of high quality - for that time - already in the 80ies.
 
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Kvalsvoll

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Also, what about cabinet vibrations and the effect on decay?


Is this true with lively cabinets? I would think decay from cabinet vibrations would be clearly audible with some speakers.

Can not rule out the possibility of audible cabinet resonances, or other artifacts. It is just that they are masked in an in-room measurement from the listening position, but that does not mean we can not hear them.
 
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Kvalsvoll

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Article is now updated with better graphs, with scaling that shows the differences better. Especially the spectrum plot with 25dB range shows differences much better.


Trad speaker spectrum:
directivity update spect trad.png


F205 spectrum:
directivity update spect F205.png


When looking at this, it makes sense that there is a very audible difference in sound quality.

I also want to repeat my repeating message on people going blind on frequency response charts - here, the frequency response of those speakers are quite similar - similar enough that they should sound if not similar, at least not very different - but, the spectrum now shows why they sound very different; The F205 has a much cleaner transient response and less early-decay "noise".
 

RayDunzl

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I did a short article on how loudspeaker directivity affects in-room measurements, here is a brief summary:

We know loudspeakers sound different, we also know they can measure different – both in the lab, and in-room. But what if they seem to measure quite similar – and still sound very different. Is there something hidden in those measurements, that we missed?

Frequency response is quite similar:

View attachment 119016

But they sound different. And indeed. if we look deeper, we can find differences in the measurements. Comparing decay profiles reveal smoother more linear decay with controlled directivity:

View attachment 119017

Link to full article:
Effect of Loudspeaker Directivity Compared with In-room Measurements


From your link:

"The new controlled directivity speakers gives a different presentation, where soundstage and the instruments within are perceived as much more precise and accurate, while they also maintain or improve their natural size. Clarity and definition is much better."


MartinLogan electrostat (black) vs JBL LSR 308 (red), response flattened with DRC on both.

Microphone at the couch, 10 feet away.

Unsmoothed frequency response. I attribute the hash (cancellations) to be due to room reflections.

I perceive the "imaging" of the more directionally inhibited 'stats to be more to my liking when critically listening.

So, in that respect, they sound different.


1639113504900.png
 

dasdoing

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I think we should AB the effect of this. we just have to create 2 filters in rephase that produce flat var smoothed graphs but one has much deeper micr-cancelations then the other. we than compare those on headphones against the an unfiltered signal
 

ernestcarl

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Article is now updated with better graphs, with scaling that shows the differences better. Especially the spectrum plot with 25dB range shows differences much better.


Trad speaker spectrum:
View attachment 171421

F205 spectrum:
View attachment 171422

When looking at this, it makes sense that there is a very audible difference in sound quality.

I also want to repeat my repeating message on people going blind on frequency response charts - here, the frequency response of those speakers are quite similar - similar enough that they should sound if not similar, at least not very different - but, the spectrum now shows why they sound very different; The F205 has a much cleaner transient response and less early-decay "noise".

Are the spectral differences you are most concerned with much easier to see/distinguish using the Fourier mode (vs the Wavelet)?
 

RayDunzl

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I think we should AB the effect of this. we just have to create 2 filters in rephase that produce flat var smoothed graphs but one has much deeper micr-cancelations then the other. we than compare those on headphones against the an unfiltered signal

In my opinion, the micro-cancellations do not occur due to speaker mismatch (no test of that), but the room reflections.

As for no EQ, same exact setup (same session) without EQ.:

1639142401201.png


The dip at 48Hz is due to asymmetrical room behind the listener, and at 220Hz due to dipole (wall behind the speakers)
 

dasdoing

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In my opinion, the micro-cancellations do not occur due to speaker mismatch (no test of that), but the room reflections.

As for no EQ, same exact setup (same session) without EQ.:

you missundertood me. I have the same opinion as you.
I just want us to AB test it, cause it would also prove that the unsmoothed graph is much more important than thought
 

rdenney

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Are the ML's really directionally limited? As dipoles, they radiate to the back as much as to the front, it seems to me, which will introduce a different set of comb cancellations.

But I want to go back to the OP. Thank you! I had not yet really gotten around to grasping what was being shown on the decay plot, even at low frequencies where room modes may be dominant. It has explained what was confusing me about my measurements from a few days ago.

Here's a reminder of the frequency response plots from my Revel F12's in my room, with external equalization:

1221_AfterEQ.jpg


I've been trying to figure out the difference in nulls between the left and right speakers in the context of either room modes or boundary cancellations, but could not find corresponding measurements that made any sense. The room is geometrically complex, with openings to adjacent spaces and a sloped ceiling that eliminates first reflections from above and opens into a loft space. This seemed to defy any reasonable application of any simulators I have access to.

But in addition to validating the controlled directivity of my Revel F12's, the decay diagrams reveal the underlying room modes not visible in the immediate frequency response.

1221RtEQDecay.jpg


1221LtEQDecay.jpg


First, what I learned from the OP is that the frequency response at various times from the onset of sound affect our perception of it. The F12's in my room maintain reasonably flat response at 20ms intervals from the impulse from about 100 Hz up, until the high treble when it smoothly dies away. That explains why these speakers are so good at imaging in the room, and why they still sound really good outside the listening position (even if the phantom image loses focus). Here's how I think of it: They don't leave a timbral aftertaste.

But in the lower frequencies, the delay plot reveals all. I noticed a deep null in the right speaker at 71 or 72 Hz. The right speaker has an opposing wall that is a bit different in shape (and closer) than the left speaker, and I kept trying to make that explain the issue. But when I loot at that wall from the speaker, there's just too much furniture and "stuff" to provide that level of cancellation, and the 9-foot distance doesn't correspond to the frequency usefully. A null should appear at 1/4, 3/4, or 5/4 of the wavelength. The wavelength of 72 Hz is about 15.6 feet, so I was looking for 4 or 12-foot distances (everything else seeming to me much longer and not relevant). I was looking for the short distance because I did NOT see the null in the left channel at 72 Hz, and so thought the issue in the right channel must be close to the right speaker.

But with the decay plot, I see that the left channel does indeed have a null at 72 Hz, but something fills it in for the first tenth of a second.

I see the same effect at 90-something Hz, which shows as a null in the left channel, and also in the right channel but only after a tenth of a second or so.

I also see that the left channel rings at 58 Hz, but it was lost in the dip at 52 Hz and the right channel didn't reveal it in the immediate frequency response. But the decay plot shows clear residual ringing in BOTH channels at 58 Hz. So, what distances will ring at 58 Hz? A little over 19 feet (as it happens, the effective bugle length of a Bb contrabass tuba). Yes, that means the second-harmonic "low" Bb of a Bb tuba is at 58 Hz, and I do hear that note ring in the room.

What causes it? Parallel walls side to side that are 19.5 feet apart. They will reinforce that frequency at the walls and right in the middle, which is about where the left speaker is relative to that dimension. Thus, the left speaker will excite that mode strongly and immediately, while the right speaker will excite it...eventually.

And what of the null at 72 Hz, that the right channel sees immediately but the left channel only sees eventually? Five-fourths of that 15.6-foot wavelength is, you guessed it, 19.5 feet. So, those parallel walls are ringing at 58 Hz, most immediately at the location of the left speaker, and nulling at 72 Hz, most immediately at the location of the right speaker. The room simulators turn out to be useful after all--at least the ones that show the nulls.

(The ringing at 120 Hz is the air-handling system.)

I would not have figured any of that out without the delay plot. Thanks for explaining it enough that I started really paying attention to it.

(Sidebar: The ringing in the range of the tuba interests me especially. I notice that some of the ringing seems to change pitch as it decays--some component decays faster leaving another component that isn't quite at the same frequency. I have noticed that some notes on the tuba do not sound in tune to me, but measure perfectly on a tuner, and sound fine played the usual way in other settings. I had wondered for some years whether that was some trick of the room acoustics or my tin ear, and here I see that it is the room after all. The fundamentals of the basic range of the tuba extend from 29 to 350 Hz for advanced players, but the sound includes prominent overtones up to the 9th harmonic. That 100-300Hz range is really important. I'm hearing the after-ring with a pitch slightly different from what I was producing, but the tuba pitch has a low enough Q to excite the neighboring frequencies that ring longer.)

Rick "now knows where he would apply treatments if the wife would agree, which she won't :)" Denney
 
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markus

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I did a short article on how loudspeaker directivity affects in-room measurements, here is a brief summary:

We know loudspeakers sound different, we also know they can measure different – both in the lab, and in-room. But what if they seem to measure quite similar – and still sound very different. Is there something hidden in those measurements, that we missed?

Frequency response is quite similar:

View attachment 119016

But they sound different. And indeed. if we look deeper, we can find differences in the measurements. Comparing decay profiles reveal smoother more linear decay with controlled directivity:

View attachment 119017

Link to full article:
Effect of Loudspeaker Directivity Compared with In-room Measurements

Thanks for the measurements. There has been quite a bit of research on the topic in the past (see numerous AES papers – Bech "Archimedes project" in particular) but we still don't know nearly enough. Very basic questions are still unanswered although we have educated – and even more uneducated – guesses.

How exactly (metrics! numbers!) does direct and indirect sound (result of speaker dispersion and room response) influence our perception of spaciousness, envelopment and especially timbre?
How does it affect localization, clarity?
Does it relate to room size? How?
Can or should it be corrected using DSP or room treatments? To what extend?
What numbers are "right"? Is it even possible to define a target when "audio's circle of confusion" is still in full force?
 
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Kvalsvoll

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Are the spectral differences you are most concerned with much easier to see/distinguish using the Fourier mode (vs the Wavelet)?
That is something I am looking into. Fourier is easier to understand. But other methods for viewing the information that is in there in those measurements, may be better to show those differences.
 

tuga

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Also, what about cabinet vibrations and the effect on decay?

Hi-Fi World uses CSD plots to observe what they call "box boof".

DECAY SPECTRUM

WHAT IT TELLS US
The idea behind this measurement is to fire a short signal at a loudspeaker and see what emerges when it stops. Ideally, there should be nothing. In practice, energy bouncing around inside the cabinet and stored in mechanical reactance within resonant systems dissipates, out through the cone(s) and cabinet walls and port, producing a decaying signal. This isn’t wanted, as it muddies the sound and colours it.
Measurement of spectral decay (waterfall plot) produces a large amount of complex data in a pretty picture that looks impressive but is difficult to interpret. Unlike frequency response there is no agreed and commonly used methodology behind this measurement. We use this test to look at perceptibly obvious colouration, such as box ‘boof’, rather than the intrinsic character of a drive unit, for example. Consequently we use a decay time outside the 20-30mS boundary between intrinsic colour and a divorced echo or colouration, such as box 'boof’. At present, after experiment across a large sample of loudspeakers under test for review, we use 200mS for a useful picture. For similar reasons International Audio Group (Quad, Mission, Wharfedale, Castle and Leak brands) use 500mS (half a second) decay time. Many published waterfall decay plots, however, show a short time window of 20mS or less, inside the Intrinsic / Divorced boundary. These attempt to reveal intrinsic drive unit colouration and are not comparable to our data.
Ideally, there will be no time delayed information but in practice long decays, seen as ranges of descending hills, exist and are evidence of colouration. The undamped glass cabinet of Waterfall's Victoria Evo loudspeaker (above) clearly illustrates this. Often, a colouration seen in this plot can be linked to a small perturbation in our green frequency response plot, and greater disturbance in our red port plot,indicating a strong internal box mode exists. This not uncommon phenomenon, revealed by a spectral decay plot, can be heard as slight chestiness and boxy colour to deep male speech on the radio, where live talk direct to the microphone provides a stringent real life test signal. So spectral decay analysis can be useful, especially when it helps identify a problem seen less obviously within other measurements.

HOW WE MEASURE IT
We fire a test signal known as a ‘log chirp’ (short, fast gliding sine wave burst) through the loudspeaker, as this gives strong low frequency excitation and good signal-to-noise ratio (unlike mls noise). Decay over 200mS (0.2sec) afterward is analysed, depicted as a waterfall plot and as a contour-coloured map. The latter looks at the waterfall from above and uses colour to identify different levels, much like an Ordnance Survey map. Correlation between the two display methods is shown clearly, where the 'hills' in the waterfall are seen as streaks of colour in the contoured map. Highest levels are Red (hot) and Lowest are Blue (cold), running through the colour spectrum between. This is visually easily assimilated and quite powerful once understood. The data is referred to, but not published in the magazine, to save space.


http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/index.php/loudspeakers/69-tests/95-decay-spectrum-waterfall.html


graham-audio-ls5-9-decay-gr.gif

Graham Audio BBC LS5/9 (thin-wall resonant cabinet construction)
graham-audio-ls5-9-decay-ma.gif


--------------------------------------------------------------------

usher-dancer-minix-decaygra.jpg

Usher Dancer Mini-X Diamond (thick - 50mm baffle, 25mm curved walls - cabinet construction)
usher-dancer-minix-decaymap.jpg




graham-ls5-9-bbc-red.jpg


usher-dancer-mini-x-diamond.jpg
 
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Kvalsvoll

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Thanks for the measurements. There has been quite a bit of research on the topic in the past (see numerous AES papers – Bech "Archimedes project" in particular) but we still don't know nearly enough. Very basic questions are still unanswered although we have educated – and even more uneducated – guesses.

How exactly (metrics! numbers!) does direct and indirect sound (result of speaker dispersion and room response) influence our perception of spaciousness, envelopment and especially timbre?
How does it affect localization, clarity?
Does it relate to room size? How?
Can or should it be corrected using DSP or room treatments? To what extend?
What numbers are "right"? Is it even possible to define a target when "audio's circle of confusion" is still in full force?
And those are the questions worth working on now. In 2022. Using a combination of practical listening experiments, and theory and measurements.
 
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Kvalsvoll

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Are the ML's really directionally limited? As dipoles, they radiate to the back as much as to the front, it seems to me, which will introduce a different set of comb cancellations.
The ML is a curved dipole panel. I did a design with similar curved panel on a magnestat (Like the Apogee) back in the 80'ies.

The dipole is born with a radiation pattern that limits all sound to the sides, and thus reduces early refletcions around the speaker itself, provided it is placed not too close to the front wall - needs some space behind it. Additonally, the panel is very tall, creating a cylindrical pattern that eliminates reflections in the vertical plane. And the curvature is shallow, so the horisontal radiation angle is quite narrow. All this together, gives a sound in the room with less reflections compared to a typical small speaker.

The combing in the fr is a result from reflections inside the room. Viewing the frequency response like this, with no smoothing, has been showed to not correlate well with how we perceive the tonality.

This does not mean those reflections have no effect on the sound. It is just that there are other, much better, ways to view that information - decay, spectrum.
 

Spkrdctr

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Can not rule out the possibility of audible cabinet resonances, or other artifacts. It is just that they are masked in an in-room measurement from the listening position, but that does not mean we can not hear them.
I'm not understanding the statement "that if they are masked, doesn't mean we can't hear them". If they are masked how does a person hear them? Or, actually how could a person know if they hear it if it is masked? Thanks for a great topic!
 

rdenney

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I'm not understanding the statement "that if they are masked, doesn't mean we can't hear them". If they are masked how does a person hear them? Or, actually how could a person know if they hear it if it is masked? Thanks for a great topic!
I found ringing 20 or 30 dB down--effectively masked in the FR plot--but that persisted after other frequencies had fully decayed. And I do hear them, but as an afterglow, not so much as a primary timbral change, depending on what is being played.

Rick "one may not know what is there until it's not there" Denney
 
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Kvalsvoll

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I'm not understanding the statement "that if they are masked, doesn't mean we can't hear them". If they are masked how does a person hear them? Or, actually how could a person know if they hear it if it is masked? Thanks for a great topic!
Here I mean they may be masked visually in the picture we use to show the measurement. They can still be audible. But room reflections and resonances will indeed also mask audibility of faults from the speaker itself.
 
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Kvalsvoll

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But in addition to validating the controlled directivity of my Revel F12's, the decay diagrams reveal the underlying room modes not visible in the immediate frequency response.
You can even see a lot more in those decay graphs. In the Controls-menu, there are settings for Slice Interval, and Rise Time. Try to reduce Rise Time - set it to no longer than the Slice Interval, even try 1ms. This controls the memory of each line - too long slice, and it remembers too much from what happened earlier in time.
 
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