Economics - Real-life 'Trickle-down' Fail

[Thomas savage]

Care to expand on that? I don't see it as a binary terrible idea. It is related to what was predicted in the 1970s: a life of leisure for all who choose it, with the microchips doing the work. If we are to have that (too late for some of us, unfortunately), we need some new ideas and this seems like a possible winner.

We’ve tried this in various forms from welfare systems to dealing with displaced indigenous populations, it’s only ever caused grave social ( and economic) issues ( all sorts of drug abuses alcohol abuse domestic violence you name it) and has degenerative effect on the population .

There’s a removal of identity structures, self determination , self respect, empowerment and responsibility I could go on and on lol .

It’s a catastrophic idea that would likely expedite the end of the human race.

Oh then there’s there all the complications introducing this would bring , mass migration and likely total war . It’s just a shit plan mate, it’s bad for the soul.

 

[dallasjustice]

We’ve tried this in various forms from welfare systems to dealing with displaced indigenous populations, it’s only ever caused grave social ( and economic) issues ( all sorts of drug abuses alcohol abuse domestic violence you name it) and has degenerative effect on the population .

There’s a removal of identity structures, self determination , self respect, empowerment and responsibility I could go on and on lol .

It’s a catastrophic idea that would likely expedite the end of the human race.

Oh then there’s there all the complications introducing this would bring , mass migration and likely total war . It’s just a shit plan mate.

Everyone deserves their fair share. We all know money isn't distributed fairly and this is a way to correct that problem. Workers’ surplus value is regularly stolen from them by their dishonest capitalist bosses. History also teaches us that technology always leads to total unemployment and despair for the workers. Penury must be eliminated!

This all sounds so familiar. Where have I heard this before????

 

[Thomas savage]

Everyone deserves their fair share. We all know money isn't distributed fairly and this is a way to correct that problem. Workers’ surplus value is regularly stolen from them by their dishonest capitalist bosses. History also teaches us that technology always leads to total unemployment and despair for the workers. Penury must be eliminated!

This all sounds so familiar. Where have I heard this before????

Burn the mills

 

[Dismayed]

If I cherry-picked the years they were cherry picked for me in the cherry-picking article:

"When the GOP took full control of Oklahoma government after the 2010 election..."



The last time I looked, there were 200 billion galaxies (and counting) of Free Lunch waiting to be plundered.

Oops... 2 trillion... and counting...

Don't forget that 86.7% of statistics are made up on the spot.

 

[Wombat]

Universal Basic Income. Any views?

When the compliant underclass(unemployed and unabled) reach a critical mass what are the other options that will maintain an ordered society?

 

[dallasjustice]

When the compliant underclass(unemployed and unabled) reach a critical mass what are the other options that will maintain an ordered society?

No worries. They will just move to Texas.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/19/cal...ousing-costs-and-taxes-are-fleeing-state.html

 

[Wombat]

No worries. They will just move to Texas.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/19/cal...ousing-costs-and-taxes-are-fleeing-state.html

And vote Democrat.

 

[Brad]

Apparently Richard Nixon actually had a universal basic income passed through congress. It was blocked in the senate by the democrats as they didn't think it was generous enough.
Note that a universal basic income has some fundamental differences to welfare, as it applies to everyone, social stigma of welfare doesn't apply.
The more recent experiments in Europe have apparently demonstrated quite the opposite of the lazy welfare recipient stereotype.

On a tenuously related note, I found this podcast interview with Jordan Peterson interesting
http://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/conversations/conversations-jordan-peterson/9525644

 

[Cosmik]

There's such aggressiveness (or defensiveness?) to the opinion of the pro free market (or capitalism?) people that it's not possible to even discuss the issue. I don't necessarily disagree with them, but it would be nice to hear why they are so certain that they know of the perfect economic formula. By what criteria are they measuring its effectiveness?

 

[dallasjustice]

There's such aggressiveness (or defensiveness?) to the opinion of the pro free market (or capitalism?) people that it's not possible to even discuss the issue. I don't necessarily disagree with them, but it would be nice to hear why they are so certain that they know of the perfect economic formula. By what criteria are they measuring its effectiveness?

Let’s start with Norh Korea vs South Korea. What about Venezuela vs. Chile? What about the entire communist experiment in Russia? Don’t we have enough real world data that money for nuthin’ ain’t a serious economic theory?

Remember that government and taxation are man made ideas. Government isn’t a requirement for orderly society. Think about all the things we do everyday that don’t involve government regulations or approvals. All we need is free cooperation between people to prosper. The burden of proof is always on higher tax/larger government proponents to offer evidence that their way is superior to the free people.

Economics doesn’t seek perfection. If you want perfection, listen to the Faure Requiem.

 

[Wombat]

Let’s start with Norh Korea vs South Korea. What about Venezuela vs. Chile? What about the entire communist experiment in Russia? Don’t we have enough real world data that money for nuthin’ ain’t a serious economic theory?

Remember that government and taxation are man made ideas. Government isn’t a requirement for orderly society. Think about all the things we do everyday that don’t involve government regulations or approvals. All we need is free cooperation between people to prosper. The burden of proof is always on higher tax/larger government proponents to offer evidence that their way is superior to the free people.

Economics doesn’t seek perfection. If you want perfection, listen to the Faure Requiem.

OK, back to the Wild Wild West.

 

[Cosmik]

Let’s start with Norh Korea vs South Korea. What about Venezuela vs. Chile? What about the entire communist experiment in Russia? Don’t we have enough real world data that money for nuthin’ ain’t a serious economic theory?

Remember that government and taxation are man made ideas. Government isn’t a requirement for orderly society. Think about all the things we do everyday that don’t involve government regulations or approvals. All we need is free cooperation between people to prosper. The burden of proof is always on higher tax/larger government proponents offer evidence that their way is superior to the free people.

If the ultimate in happiness and meaningful life is an 8 hour day in an office with people you may barely tolerate, plus commuting, and a few days off a year to recuperate, in the pursuit of manufacturing and acquiring stuff that maybe no one really needs then maybe it is the perfect economic system. Maybe it really is, and the alternative must always be far worse. But if so, that's a bit sad.

As far as I can work out, the UBI experiment is an attempt to allow people to opt out of the rat race to whatever degree they desire (currently not an option for most people; it's rather binary and as Brad said, has a social stigma attached) and to benefit from the fruits of automation (that could be seen as belonging to everyone) and choosing time (= meaningful life) over pointless 'stuff'. For the 'strivers' there is clearly a cost: it probably means they can only spend $500 on an audio cable rather than the $1000 they would prefer, but at the same time it is less likely that they will be burgled or mugged by desperate people.

 

[Cosmik]

Just thinking about the situation that free market capitalism produces, why is the working day 8 hours? Why not 10 or 12? Why is the working week 5 days? Surely it could be 6. Why five weeks holiday a year? (In Europe...). Why not cut it down to two? Presumably the answer is that society agrees on it and governments enforce it. If you're an alpha workaholic, you'd no doubt like it to a be a lot less cushy for everybody; but if you're a creative soul, you'd like to spend a lot more time creating and inventing and less working in a warehouse packing and dispatching toxic plastic toys from China or whatever role the free market has found for you.

 

[Wombat]

I don't understand why those who raise issues with western economics and democracy are called communists by some(uninformed?). The issue is about fairness and share of the bounty that comes from the exploitation of the common-wealth. It is not opposition to capitalism per se.

Business/wealth-based donations to politicians and their parties(bribes) is not democratic(about individual votes) and gives wealth -holders an unfair advantage - a cosy arrangement for the few.

 

[Cosmik]

I don't understand why those who raise issues with western economics and democracy are called communists by some(uninformed). The issue is about fairness and share of the bounty that comes from the exploitation of the common-wealth. It is not opposition to capitalism per se.

Business/wealth-based donations to politicians and their parties(bribes) is not democratic(about individual votes) and gives wealth -holders an unfair advantage - a cosy arrangement for the few.

I don't primarily see it from the standpoint of unfairness or advantage. I think that there are many rich, seemingly successful people who are just as trapped on the treadmill as the less wealthy and who would welcome enforced 'quality time'. The free market does produce vast wealth, and everyone benefits, but at the expense of an ultimately pointless life. Maybe there is a better way...

 

[dallasjustice]

Business donations to politicians and their parties(bribes) is not democratic(about individual votes) and gives wealth -holders an unfair advantage.

I don’t understand why those who oppose a truly free society would rather criticize Capitalism not with examples of it but rather examples of fascism or a kleptocracy. I have never argued that the U.S. is a Capitalist system. There are remnants of Capitalism left in the U.S. But there are other countries today which are much closer Capitalism.

If the government didn’t have the power to distribute corporate welfare to the highest bidder, then your criticism of Capitalism wouldn’t be a problem. The U.S. Constitution was designed to limit the power of government. Over time, it’s been read to empower virtually any program that will buy votes or corruption.

 

[Cosmik]

I don’t understand why those who oppose a truly free society would rather criticize Capitalism not with examples of it but rather examples of fascism or a kleptocracy.

How did my comment do that? (you quoted it as though it did)

 

[dallasjustice]

How did my comment do that? (you quoted it as though it did)

Sorry. You are right. I fixed it.

 

[Cosmik]

What is this "truly free society"? More details, please...

 

[Brad]

In the podcast I linked, Jordan Peterson (a clinical psychologist) asked the question as to whether the cold war was a competition between two arbitrary ways of organising a society. He came to the conclusion that individual sovreignty is critical to self-preservation. In contrast in a communist society, individuals don't matter and this leads to a nihilistic attitude.

Of course, a UBI is a socialist measure and has nothing to do with communism. In fact, you could argue it would help ensure individual expression.