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EAT C Sharp

rman9

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Anyone here has had experience with EAT C Sharp? how simple is it to set up? is belt drive a safe way to go compared to DD? I am debating between this and the Thorens DD 403.. Any advice would be really helpful..
 

spiral scratch

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Might be worth thinging about what kind of cartrdige you want to use and which arm will work better with it. The cartridge makes the music, everything else is just there to make that work properly. They both look like pretty heavily engineered turntables so DD vs belt seems like a moot point. I like the idea of DD but it all comes down to how well it's implemented and the Thorens looks good. It's all beyond my price point. I kind of feel like there's a diminishing return here where you have something like vinyl playback with an inherent noise floor, so how much does it cost to engineer something before that's not a concern. I don't know. They look cool, I guess that's something to consider.
 
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rman9

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Might be worth thinging about what kind of cartrdige you want to use and which arm will work better with it. The cartridge makes the music, everything else is just there to make that work properly. They both look like pretty heavily engineered turntables so DD vs belt seems like a moot point. I like the idea of DD but it all comes down to how well it's implemented and the Thorens looks good. It's all beyond my price point. I kind of feel like there's a diminishing return here where you have something like vinyl playback with an inherent noise floor, so how much does it cost to engineer something before that's not a concern. I don't know. They look cool, I guess that's something to consider.
Thanks for the message.. The EAT C sharp comes with the Ortofon Quintet Black MC, and the Thorens comes with Ortofon 2M Blue cartridge. The cartridge is making me lean towards the EAT. I keep hearing Black is more detailed than the Blue and without being noisy.. I have wondered the lifetime of the belt, do they have to be periodically replaced over time, as they lose their tautness? I do have to admit, the EAT looks so much sharper than the Thorens :)
 

spiral scratch

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Belts wear out over time, but not like that would be a deal breaker as they are generally only a few bucks to replace. There's a whole tweaker thing with belts too and plenty of esoteric products out there waiting to part you from your cash. I don't have experience with those cartridges, but from what I've read here the Black can be overly analytical for some tastes, so the Bronze was preferred for the smoother sound and still with plenty of detail. You could search around the forum here or elsewhere for opinions. The Blue's an upper entry level cartridge, and a very good one from what I gather, just doesn't have the refined stylii of the Bronze and Black. Bronze and Black styli are interchangeable with that body, Blues can swap with Reds. Their compliance are similar so any of those should work with those arms if that's what they're recommending.
 

Tom C

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I’ve never owned an EAT or Project (both made on the same factory, as I understand it), nor a Thorens. I have a belt drive VPI and a direct drive Technics. For simplicity and ease of use, I prefer the Technics. Performance, in my hands and to my ears, is not different between the two.
Both of your choices have 9-in tonearms. The Thorens design is more traditional, and may be more straightforward to deal with. It also has a detachable head shell, which can make changing cartridges (say, changing between mono and stereo, or changing between MM and MC) easier. The Project/EAT people have been in business for some time, and can certainly be expected to produce a top quality product. FWIW, Thorens has been in business much longer.
Lastly, I’ll say that since both turntables come with the cartridge installed, first-time setup should be minimal for you, in both cases. The more delicate adjustments will have been done before shipping to you, and you shouldn’t have too much to do beyond installing the platter, maybe placing the tonearm onto it’s base, maybe not even that. The challenge will come when you want to replace the cartridge.
 
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rman9

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I’ve never owned an EAT or Project (both made on the same factory, as I understand it), nor a Thorens. I have a belt drive VPI and a direct drive Technics. For simplicity and ease of use, I prefer the Technics. Performance, in my hands and to my ears, is not different between the two.
Both of your choices have 9-in tonearms. The Thorens design is more traditional, and may be more straightforward to deal with. It also has a detachable head shell, which can make changing cartridges (say, changing between mono and stereo, or changing between MM and MC) easier. The Project/EAT people have been in business for some time, and can certainly be expected to produce a top quality product. FWIW, Thorens has been in business much longer.
Lastly, I’ll say that since both turntables come with the cartridge installed, first-time setup should be minimal for you, in both cases. The more delicate adjustments will have been done before shipping to you, and you shouldn’t have too much to do beyond installing the platter, maybe placing the tonearm onto it’s base, maybe not even that. The challenge will come when you want to replace the cartridge.
The more I am reading messages on this board, the more apprehensive I am on diving into the vinyl medium.. The allure comes from having owned a TT in my teens and I found it to be a more satisfying medium than a cassette deck.. I do not have any vinyl records nor do I have a TT now.. The digital system is brand new.. Lumin mini, Mcintosh C53 and MC462 driving some Joseph Audio speakers.. But I have created space on the rack, just in case I decide to go through with getting the EAT C Sharp :)
 

spiral scratch

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hahaha, yeh there's some vinyl detractors around here, but also plenty of enthusiasts. My sense is that it's more about people who claim vinyl has superior fidelity to other audio formats. i used to believe this too but after conducting my own listening tests I found it wasn't the case for me. I've been playing records before CDs were a thing and kept on doing it. Sentimentality is a perfectly valid reason to enjoy something, so if you want to recreate an experience from your past why not. If your main concern is accurate sound reproduction especially with the advent of inexpensive performance DACs, it's a lot of cash to get something that sounds similar to a CD. I enjoy playing records and I continue to invest in my vinyl playback set up. it sounds great to me. Some people like harmonic distortion in their music and the tactile experience that vinyl provides. I enjoy it too but I also enjoy my DAC and streaming my digital library. So, ultimately it should be about what brings you enjoyment, not necessarily whether it's perfect reproduction or not.

That EAT C Sharp has a unipivot tonearm. If you haven't handled one before they can be kind of fiddly. If you're an all thumbs kind of person it may pose problems. My friend had a unipivot and after knocking the tips off three or four cartridges he got rid of it.
 

Tom C

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I never took a deep dive into it, but I think the EAT C Sharp has a modified unipivot. If so, some of the fussiness may have been taken out of it.
My turntable has a 12-in unipivot. I haven’t (yet!) ever damaged a cartridge. I don’t find it particularly difficult to work with, but some people hate the way the arm wobbles when lowered to the record surface. Strictly a visual thing that doesn’t bother me. Unipivot is a solid design choice. Low in friction and stiction, and I would expect cheaper to produce than a fine bearing. Having said that, the latest VPI arm is not a unipivot, and uses bearings.
 

Tom C

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The more I am reading messages on this board, the more apprehensive I am on diving into the vinyl medium.. The allure comes from having owned a TT in my teens and I found it to be a more satisfying medium than a cassette deck.. I do not have any vinyl records nor do I have a TT now.. The digital system is brand new.. Lumin mini, Mcintosh C53 and MC462 driving some Joseph Audio speakers.. But I have created space on the rack, just in case I decide to go through with getting the EAT C Sharp :)
You have a really wonderful setup already. That EAT is a lovely, stylish table. I’m sure you will have much enjoyment from it!
 
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rman9

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You have a really wonderful setup already. That EAT is a lovely, stylish table. I’m sure you will have much enjoyment from it!
Thank you so much!! As I grow older, there are times when I feel like a timid child struggling to make decisions. Many a times I am an impulse buyer and it really helps to take a pause and think and listen to people.. I'll post a picture if I do end up getting the EAT..
hahaha, yeh there's some vinyl detractors around here, but also plenty of enthusiasts. My sense is that it's more about people who claim vinyl has superior fidelity to other audio formats. i used to believe this too but after conducting my own listening tests I found it wasn't the case for me. I've been playing records before CDs were a thing and kept on doing it. Sentimentality is a perfectly valid reason to enjoy something, so if you want to recreate an experience from your past why not. If your main concern is accurate sound reproduction especially with the advent of inexpensive performance DACs, it's a lot of cash to get something that sounds similar to a CD. I enjoy playing records and I continue to invest in my vinyl playback set up. it sounds great to me. Some people like harmonic distortion in their music and the tactile experience that vinyl provides. I enjoy it too but I also enjoy my DAC and streaming my digital library. So, ultimately it should be about what brings you enjoyment, not necessarily whether it's perfect reproduction or not.

That EAT C Sharp has a unipivot tonearm. If you haven't handled one before they can be kind of fiddly. If you're an all thumbs kind of person it may pose problems. My friend had a unipivot and after knocking the tips off three or four cartridges he got rid of it.
Thanks again!! words of advise always welcome.. I keep thinking I'll achieve audio nirvana with the Vinyl.. I am probably in for a frustrating journey, I can see that.. I am contemplating having my local dealer from whom I bought the MC gear, will let me borrow a decent TT for a week and hook it up and listen to see what I am missing or not missing.. They are pretty good with stuff like that.. I get what you mean by the tactile experience.. It's like driving a stick shift versus an automatic for me.. a sport suspension is a better experience with the stick.. Anyway.. I'll continue to think through.. I do have a question.. Do you have any Vinly collection of classical music? like any Johan Sebastian? how wholesome do they sound?
 

spiral scratch

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Hopefully not frustrating for you; it's a hobby meant to be fun. Vinyl lends itself to tailoring the sound more than other gear. Part of the fun for me is figuring that out. Auditioning the turntable sounds like a great idea to me, if not the store then maybe a friend with a loaner. Cartridges probably have more to do with how things sound than anything else. If you can figure out what you like to hear before you commit to one particular sound it might help.

I'm not sure what you mean by "wholesome" sound. I have some J.S. Bach on vinyl and it sounded good to me. I haven't played it in a while. I know that classical music is a lot about specific performances and there are some that never made it to the digital domain, so if that's your interest there may be something there for you to explore. Vinyl is physically limited in the amount of info that can go on there so about 16 min for 331/3 is optimal. I have classical LPs that approach 30 min a side, so there's going to be some distortion in there. If it gets to the point where it's bothersome, well that's a problem. Even then classical movements don't always fit onto one side so you are flipping the record to catch the rest. Vinyl has compression and noise floor so there's less dynamic range available to hear. People still claim vinyl is superior sounding, and I'm glad to hear they enjoy it. Overall I wouldn't rank vinyl as superior sounding, but I do enjoy it. I guess I'm more tolerant of it's shortcomings and like it for other reasons. You might want to try the music forum here or elsewhere for more info on the recordings of interest as I know that can vary a lot from one pressing to the next.
 
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rman9

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Hopefully not frustrating for you; it's a hobby meant to be fun. Vinyl lends itself to tailoring the sound more than other gear. Part of the fun for me is figuring that out. Auditioning the turntable sounds like a great idea to me, if not the store then maybe a friend with a loaner. Cartridges probably have more to do with how things sound than anything else. If you can figure out what you like to hear before you commit to one particular sound it might help.

I'm not sure what you mean by "wholesome" sound. I have some J.S. Bach on vinyl and it sounded good to me. I haven't played it in a while. I know that classical music is a lot about specific performances and there are some that never made it to the digital domain, so if that's your interest there may be something there for you to explore. Vinyl is physically limited in the amount of info that can go on there so about 16 min for 331/3 is optimal. I have classical LPs that approach 30 min a side, so there's going to be some distortion in there. If it gets to the point where it's bothersome, well that's a problem. Even then classical movements don't always fit onto one side so you are flipping the record to catch the rest. Vinyl has compression and noise floor so there's less dynamic range available to hear. People still claim vinyl is superior sounding, and I'm glad to hear they enjoy it. Overall I wouldn't rank vinyl as superior sounding, but I do enjoy it. I guess I'm more tolerant of it's shortcomings and like it for other reasons. You might want to try the music forum here or elsewhere for more info on the recordings of interest as I know that can vary a lot from one pressing to the next.
When I listen to some of the classical music on a CD or streaming, it sounds so clinical.. almost a little nascent like it was recorded in a studio rather than in a symphony hall. I am not sure I am explaining it well.. I am definitely planning on seeking some help from the dealer.. What did you mean by Vinyl has compression. There is not enough headroom from highs to lows? and vice versa?
 

spiral scratch

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I couldn't say specifically what you are hearing, but it's more descriptive than "wholesome". That presentation you are describing could be due to a number of factors, I would hazard a guess it has more to do with the recording and/or mastering, and also if you are streaming in lossy format will all make a difference to the quality of your sound. There's also a design element called cross talk that would be a factor in your playback gear, but for anything with decent engineering this would be a nonissue.

There is not enough headroom from highs to lows? and vice versa?

Yes, again we are talking about the physical limitations of the medium, so at a minimim low frequency information will be curtailed in order for the record to play properly. It can also be employed to allow more music onto a side of an LP., the greater the dynamic range the more physical space on the LP it requires. Check out this interview transcript with a couple of audio engineers, it provides a lot of information in manner much better than i could ever explain it. It might help answer some of your questions.

https://www.npr.org/2012/02/10/146697658/why-vinyl-sounds-better-than-cd-or-not
 
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rman9

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I couldn't say specifically what you are hearing, but it's more descriptive than "wholesome". That presentation you are describing could be due to a number of factors, I would hazard a guess it has more to do with the recording and/or mastering, and also if you are streaming in lossy format will all make a difference to the quality of your sound. There's also a design element called cross talk that would be a factor in your playback gear, but for anything with decent engineering this would be a nonissue.



Yes, again we are talking about the physical limitations of the medium, so at a minimim low frequency information will be curtailed in order for the record to play properly. It can also be employed to allow more music onto a side of an LP., the greater the dynamic range the more physical space on the LP it requires. Check out this interview transcript with a couple of audio engineers, it provides a lot of information in manner much better than i could ever explain it. It might help answer some of your questions.

https://www.npr.org/2012/02/10/146697658/why-vinyl-sounds-better-than-cd-or-not
Thank you so much for the link.. You've been quite helpful.. It was quite an eye opener or maybe a ear opener.. Think I am pretty convinced to not go the vinyl route.. Surface noise and dynamic compression could be a serious problem with vinyl for me.. On the CD's I get now, that not all recording was from the original master tapes.. that could explain the poor presence of sound in those.. One thing that hit me hard reading through the interview is where they said, just because you spend a lot of money on speakers doesn't mean they are going to be great.. I am waiting on a pair of Magico A3's to be delivered sometime in January :(.. I did fall in love with them during the audition.. and I don't like using the subs for two channel music, and these speakers were wonderful with the lows and highs compared to the Sonus.. It felt right to pair the Mcintosh C53/462 with a good set of speakers..
 

spiral scratch

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You're welcome. Glad that I could help you make a more informed decision. You may be correct about the recordings you referenced and it may help to seek out different masterings. As was stated in that interview not all CD transfers are created equal.

I do enjoy records and they can sound wonderful, but I don't believe that they offer some special window into the sound. I think it's pretty much what they stated in that interview, it's about the 'experience'. I enjoy the mechanics and am endlessly enamoured with how a tiny chisel wobbling in a plastic trough makes such great sounds. if you're after accurate full range sound reproduction then digital is the way to go.

just because you spend a lot of money on speakers doesn't mean they are going to be great..

Well, they might be great for you, I hope they are. I don't know them myself but you can search this site for info on them. There's a lot of excellent info on speakers here and what to listen for when shopping. The people here are quite knowledgeable about what makes speakers great and measure them to establish their performance. And yes it's sometimes determined that the cost doesn't always equal performance and that can go both ways. Speakers seem like another component that has a lot to do with individual taste, but apparently we do tend to prefer a flat response for critical listening.
 
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rman9

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You're welcome. Glad that I could help you make a more informed decision. You may be correct about the recordings you referenced and it may help to seek out different masterings. As was stated in that interview not all CD transfers are created equal.

I do enjoy records and they can sound wonderful, but I don't believe that they offer some special window into the sound. I think it's pretty much what they stated in that interview, it's about the 'experience'. I enjoy the mechanics and am endlessly enamoured with how a tiny chisel wobbling in a plastic trough makes such great sounds. if you're after accurate full range sound reproduction then digital is the way to go.



Well, they might be great for you, I hope they are. I don't know them myself but you can search this site for info on them. There's a lot of excellent info on speakers here and what to listen for when shopping. The people here are quite knowledgeable about what makes speakers great and measure them to establish their performance. And yes it's sometimes determined that the cost doesn't always equal performance and that can go both ways. Speakers seem like another component that has a lot to do with individual taste, but apparently we do tend to prefer a flat response for critical listening.
English is not my first language.. when I read "I enjoy the mechanics and am endlessly enamored with how a tiny chisel wobbling in a plastic trough makes such great sounds" I have to say, that was beautifully expressed, something so profound in such few words. I hope you are taking up writing as a hobby.
Anyway, it's hard to admit to myself, my quest for a turntable is not really for sonic purity, subconsciously there might be other factors and I should stop with all the spending.. It is disappointing to find out that you have to tweak and poke every tool at your disposal with a TT to finally match with digital sound.. I don't remember having to do any of that when I used to have a TT eons ago. Never had a clue.. I had always wrongly assumed, digital music came from master transfer from Vinyl.. Yeah, I am looking forward to getting the Magicos and I hope they don't disappoint me in my room setup. Have a confession to make.. I am also waiting on a pair of Salk Veracity STs that are currently being built.. Part of the reason why am thinking long and hard not to invest in expensive Vinyl setup..
 

spiral scratch

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Well I do think that speakers are a worthwhile investment in getting great sound, so I hope they bring you closer to the sound you desire.

Vinyl playback doesn't need to be fussy. If you have someone, perhaps like your dealer to set up the turntable or you purchase something like you were looking at that comes fully set up, it's pretty much the plug and play operation you remember. Things haven't really changed, I think that's part of the appeal. You can start looking into proper cartridge loading, but that can be another set it and forget it affair. Place it on a stable shelf and you're done. That Thorens deck you mentioned in your initial post might be a good place to start to see what you think of it all. I don't know about the arm on the Thorens, so I'd look into that more before making a purchase, but the rest of it does what it's meant to do. That or something else new or used in a similar price bracket should play well enough to give you a pretty good idea what it's all about. I'd upgrade to the Ortofon 2M Bronze right off the bat as it sounds like a great performer at that price point. You just need something with a reasonably good arm to match it. The Eat C sharp in obviously on another level of build and design. Having a better arm/cartridge is generally going to sound better, but for the rest you're just trying to make something spin quietly at the correct speed. I think this stuff gets overly engineered, but it's fun to play around with if that's one's cup of tea.
 
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rman9

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Well I do think that speakers are a worthwhile investment in getting great sound, so I hope they bring you closer to the sound you desire.

Vinyl playback doesn't need to be fussy. If you have someone, perhaps like your dealer to set up the turntable or you purchase something like you were looking at that comes fully set up, it's pretty much the plug and play operation you remember. Things haven't really changed, I think that's part of the appeal. You can start looking into proper cartridge loading, but that can be another set it and forget it affair. Place it on a stable shelf and you're done. That Thorens deck you mentioned in your initial post might be a good place to start to see what you think of it all. I don't know about the arm on the Thorens, so I'd look into that more before making a purchase, but the rest of it does what it's meant to do. That or something else new or used in a similar price bracket should play well enough to give you a pretty good idea what it's all about. I'd upgrade to the Ortofon 2M Bronze right off the bat as it sounds like a great performer at that price point. You just need something with a reasonably good arm to match it. The Eat C sharp in obviously on another level of build and design. Having a better arm/cartridge is generally going to sound better, but for the rest you're just trying to make something spin quietly at the correct speed. I think this stuff gets overly engineered, but it's fun to play around with if that's one's cup of tea.
Sorry I had been out of the loop for a few.. Been dealing with atmospheric rain events in the northwest here.. Have not had any chance to focus on audio stuff.. Hope you had a great new years.. Just wanted to write quickly..
 

spiral scratch

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yeh thanks. my new years was very low key. Happy New Year to you too. Let's hope this one's a better one. Good luck dealing with the rain. It's -20c here so not much rain for me.
 
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rman9

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Ended up having contractor install two french drains, one at the bottom of the hill and one at the top of the hill, and my house is at the bottom of the hill and its already on a hill. So it's been tricky.. Never in the two decades that I have lived here, have I had so much issue with weather.. The patterns are changing for the worse :( Light at the end of the tunnel, it's been sunshine last couple of days.. Hope you are warming up some..
 
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