• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Early reflection precedence effect

Senior NEET Engineer

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Jan 6, 2020
Messages
538
Likes
591
Location
San Diego
Do all the early reflections get fused together as one or can a single reflection be noticeable?

Example is a speaker with ideal total early reflection response, but the sidewall first reflections are not that even.
 

Chromatischism

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 5, 2020
Messages
4,804
Likes
3,748
It depends on how much time has passed.

If they are truly "early" reflections, then no, we don't hear them separately. We hear the direct sound colored slightly by the early reflections that are down in level.
 

aarons915

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 20, 2019
Messages
686
Likes
1,142
Location
Chicago, IL
Do all the early reflections get fused together as one or can a single reflection be noticeable?

Example is a speaker with ideal total early reflection response, but the sidewall first reflections are not that even.
It depends on how much time has passed.

If they are truly "early" reflections, then no, we don't hear them separately. We hear the direct sound colored slightly by the early reflections that are down in level.

Dr. Toole clarifies in his book that the precedence effect deals with directional cues only, basically any reflection below a certain time threshold will appear to be coming from the location of the direct sound.

My own personal anecdote are the KEF R3 that I recently purchased, I brought it home last year and found them good but fatiguing after less than an hour and didn't really know why. After the measurements here, I wondered if the 2700Hz peak in the early reflections curve could be causing that which was partly why I bought them. Sure enough simply removing that 2700Hz peak with some PEQ smoothed them out and I can listen as long as I want without fatigue. After that I boosted the 1-3k dip to make them more neutral and that 2700Hz range is pretty much at the original level but they are still not fatiguing and I think it's because it's a smooth response now without the peak. My running theory is that when the auditory system has a direct sound followed by early reflections that don't match it close enough, the system is confused and fatigue or the sense of harshness is the result.

The more I think about it, if the direct sound and early reflections are sort of fused together, we could basically average the direct sound and early reflections and EQ a single curve...
 

tvrgeek

Major Contributor
Joined
Aug 8, 2020
Messages
1,017
Likes
566
Location
North Carolinia
I found by eliminating the early reflections ( 2 inch OC 705 panels) the imaging stage widened immensely. Freaked me out when sound seemed to come from outside the width of the room the first time.
 

QMuse

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 20, 2020
Messages
3,124
Likes
2,785
The more I think about it, if the direct sound and early reflections are sort of fused together, we could basically average the direct sound and early reflections and EQ a single curve...

Interesting observations and equaly intriguing thought. The only "single curve" that comes as a candidate for EQ is PIR (predicted in room response) which is pretty much equal to ER (early reflections curve measured anechoically) or actual in-room response (once you get rid of the room modes that come to play below 400Hz or so).

There is another camp which advocates that only direct sound matters above 400Hz, but obviously this topic needs more listening tests to see what really matters when it comes to listener preference.
 

Duke

Major Contributor
Audio Company
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 22, 2016
Messages
1,573
Likes
3,887
Location
Princeton, Texas
My running theory is that when the auditory system has a direct sound followed by early reflections that don't match it close enough, the system is confused and fatigue or the sense of harshness is the result.

I think you are correct.

As far as the fatigue goes, I think it's related to how the Precedence Effect works. I assume you're familiar with it. So the ear-brain system is comparing all incoming sounds with sounds in its short-term memory to see whether or not they are a repetition of a recent sound - i.e. a reflection. The ear/brain system looks at the spectal content of the sounds to make this determination. If there is a significant discrepancy between the spectral content of the first-arrival sound and the reflection (as in the situation you described), I THINK the ear/brain system literally has to work harder to correctly classify the reflection as such. And over time, I think this "extra CPU usage" can result listening fatigue and sometimes a headache.

I think the harshness you heard was largely a result of WHERE on the spectrum that off-axis peak occurred. The ear is particularly sensitive in the 2-4 kHz ballpark, which is unfortunately where many speakers have an off-axis response peak: At the bottom end of the tweeter's passband, where its radiation pattern is widest.
 

aarons915

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 20, 2019
Messages
686
Likes
1,142
Location
Chicago, IL
Interesting observations and equaly intriguing thought. The only "single curve" that comes as a candidate for EQ is PIR (predicted in room response) which is pretty much equal to ER (early reflections curve measured anechoically) or actual in-room response (once you get rid of the room modes that come to play below 400Hz or so).

There is another camp which advocates that only direct sound matters above 400Hz, but obviously this topic needs more listening tests to see what really matters when it comes to listener preference.

Yeah PIR would be the likely candidate if we were to use a single curve, I haven't experimented much with using it but of course the EQ I use based on the LW and ER curve helps it as well. I think it could work fine if people experiment with it and figure out the ideal slope it should be. I'm still not sure a single curve is going to work though the more I think about it and the more I experiment with EQ'ing the R3. The PIR curve doesn't show the 2700Hz peak to be a problem since it's averaged and ends up smoothing it out too much, I do believe each sound component is a separate event and can't have peaks even if all of the components averaged appear fine.


I think the harshness you heard was largely a result of WHERE on the spectrum that off-axis peak occurred. The ear is particularly sensitive in the 2-4 kHz ballpark, which is unfortunately where many speakers have an off-axis response peak: At the bottom end of the tweeter's passband, where its radiation pattern is widest.

Agreed, I had the LS50 prior to the R3 and they have the well known 2k resonance that is also fatiguing, after applying a filter there I could listen as long as I wanted without fatigue.
 

Duke

Major Contributor
Audio Company
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 22, 2016
Messages
1,573
Likes
3,887
Location
Princeton, Texas
I found by eliminating the early reflections ( 2 inch OC 705 panels) the imaging stage widened immensely. Freaked me out when sound seemed to come from outside the width of the room the first time.

This is very interesting. Was that just on some recordings, or does it tend to happen regardless of the recording?
 

thewas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
6,897
Likes
16,901
Agreed, I had the LS50 prior to the R3 and they have the well known 2k resonance that is also fatiguing, after applying a filter there I could listen as long as I wanted without fatigue.
That is not really a resonance though but just a region that is too high in level (2-5 kHz).
 

aarons915

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 20, 2019
Messages
686
Likes
1,142
Location
Chicago, IL
That is not really a resonance though but just a region that is too high in level (2-5 kHz).

That's basically the definition of a resonance isn't it lol? In the case of the LS50 the 5k peak goes away off-axis so it's not a resonance but around 2k most certainly is.
 

thewas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
6,897
Likes
16,901
That's basically the definition of a resonance isn't it lol? In the case of the LS50 the 5k peak goes away off-axis so it's not a resonance but around 2k most certainly is.
Just an increased amplitude at some frequency (like for example with poor crossover design or using an PEQ) is not the definition of a resonance, a resonance is something that increases amplitude in time with energy storage and usually also needs some time to decay and thus is visible usually also in the spectral decay (and often in devices like loudspeakers also in the distortion). Various LS50 measurements don't show such behaviour.
 

aarons915

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 20, 2019
Messages
686
Likes
1,142
Location
Chicago, IL
Just an increased amplitude at some frequency (like for example with poor crossover design or using an PEQ) is not the definition of a resonance, a resonance is something that increases amplitude in time with energy storage and usually also needs some time to decay and thus is visible usually also in the spectral decay (and often in devices like loudspeakers also in the distortion). Various LS50 measurements don't show such behaviour.

check the Soundstage measurements, there is a peak in every single measurement at 2k, I had a nice filter set based on those measurements that made them sound amazing and weren't fatiguing at all.
 

thewas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
6,897
Likes
16,901
check the Soundstage measurements, there is a peak in every single measurement at 2k, I had a nice filter set based on those measurements that made them sound amazing and weren't fatiguing at all.
As a LS50 owner from "day one" I know all their measurements and corrections, but again just frequency response measurements on different angles don't necessarily mean a resonance and are unlikely resonances when traces can't be found in the spectral decay or the distortion as its just the same as using a PEQ in the region.
Here are some nearfield (5cm) measurements that I have done that show no delayed decay at that region, just increased amplitude from poor crossover design:
1597014054878.png
 

aarons915

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 20, 2019
Messages
686
Likes
1,142
Location
Chicago, IL
As a LS50 owner from "day one" I know all their measurements and corrections, but again just frequency response measurements on different angles don't necessarily mean a resonance and are unlikely resonances when traces can't be found in the spectral decay or the distortion as its just the same as using a PEQ in the region.
Here are some nearfield (5cm) measurements that I have done that show no delayed decay at that region, just increased amplitude from poor crossover design:
View attachment 77346

A peak over a wide range of angles is the definition of a resonance per Dr. Toole, and frequency response vs Amplitude is all you need to look at to show it. Even though I don't have LS50 anymore believe me I loved them and still think they're great speakers. I'm not sure what your motivation is for arguing this point, do you not use any EQ above your room's transition frequency?
 

thewas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
6,897
Likes
16,901
A peak over a wide range of angles is the definition of a resonance per Dr. Toole,
A wide peak? Please quote the exact place where he states so.
and frequency response vs Amplitude is all you need to look at to show it.
Nope, as said you can have by PEQ, FIR or crossover (which is just a transfer function) such a wide peak and that would not be a resonance.
I'm not sure what your motivation is for arguing this point, do you not use any EQ above your room's transition frequency?
The LS50 I had to EQ, but that is not my motivation about this discussion but as an ex lecturer of mechanics at a technical university I just can't accept when the term resonance is used wrongly.
 

aarons915

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 20, 2019
Messages
686
Likes
1,142
Location
Chicago, IL
A wide peak? Please quote the exact place where he states so.

Nope, as said you can have by PEQ, FIR or crossover (which is just a transfer function) such a wide peak and that would not be a resonance.

The LS50 I had to EQ, but that is not my motivation about this discussion but as an ex lecturer of mechanics at a technical university I just can't accept when the term resonance is used wrongly.

Here is a good quote from AVS forum in the "What Science Shows" thread post #4802:

To Resonate or not to Resonate, That is the Question?

"Apologies to Shakespeare . . .

This discussion has drifted into an area of literal interpretations of classical definitions with some semantics thrown in. If there is a shallow hump in a frequency response, in literal terms it is a very low-Q resonance, implying a mechanical, electrical or acoustical system with a "favored" frequency range. In a physical system as complex as a loudspeaker it may sometimes be difficult to decide what is happening. Crossovers are equalizers, by any other name, that interact with transducers having inherently non-flat tendencies - the result is a combination of both electrical and mechanical elements. Equalizers can be resonators just as surely as acoustical cavities, enclosure panels and cone breakup. So a frequency response feature may be partly mechanical and partly electrical , but the end result can be that of a resonance having Q. Achieving a desirable flat on-axis sound using passive or active networks can result in non-flat off-axis behavior because transducers have frequency-dependent directivity. In a room the result is that even with flat direct sound, the early reflected and later reflected sounds may exhibit emphasis over a range of frequencies that could forgivably be interpreted as a low-Q resonance.

As discussed many times in this thread, transducers are inherently minimum-phase devices, so electrical EQ can modify the performance of mechanical resonances - a huge advantage for active loudspeakers or those for which accurate anechoic data are available.

In the crossover between a 6- to 8-inch woofer and a 1-inch tweeter, a directivity mismatch at crossover is unavoidable. Above crossover, the tweeter has much wider dispersion than the woofer, so there is an energy rise over a wide frequency range. Is this a resonance? Technically not, in the dictionary definition sense. However, there is a broad hump in radiated energy, so perceptually it may appear to be so. Figure 4.13 shows such an example where even crude room curves were adequate to recognize the energy excess in an above-crossover energy excess and attenuate it. Because wide bandwidth (low-Q) phenomena are detected at very small deviations there was a clear improvement in perceived sound quality even though medium and higher-Q "real" resonances were essentially unchanged. Addressing all of the "resonances" was not surprisingly the best.

So, don't get hung up on semantics. Deviations from a linear frequency response are all describable as "resonances" if one chooses to. Broadband trends are very low-Q, narrower trends, medium Q, and so on. Even a bass tone control is an opportunity to manipulate a "resonance" - in this case the hump that develops above the low cutoff frequency which, depending on the system design will have a Q.

Narrow dips are usually the result of destructive acoustical interference and are usually audibly innocuous because they change with direction/position. Broader dips can be interpreted as anti-resonances if one chooses to, whether there is an associated frequency selective absorption process or not. Mostly not.

All fodder for more discussion "
 

thewas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
6,897
Likes
16,901
Thank you, he doesn't really claim something really different than I do:
In the crossover between a 6- to 8-inch woofer and a 1-inch tweeter, a directivity mismatch at crossover is unavoidable. Above crossover, the tweeter has much wider dispersion than the woofer, so there is an energy rise over a wide frequency range. Is this a resonance? Technically not, in the dictionary definition sense. However, there is a broad hump in radiated energy, so perceptually it may appear to be so.
...
So, don't get hung up on semantics. Deviations from a linear frequency response are all describable as "resonances" if one chooses to. Broadband trends are very low-Q, narrower trends, medium Q, and so on. Even a bass tone control is an opportunity to manipulate a "resonance" - in this case the hump that develops above the low cutoff frequency which, depending on the system design will have a Q.
As you can see he says such behaviour doesn't necessarily need to be due to resonances and he even uses the term resonances in quotation marks.

To close this issue, I don't want to say that LS50 surely might not have a resonance there (if you look at detailed driver and enclosures measurements you will see or simulate hundreds of (hopefully well damped) resonances/eigenmodes) but that for that broad hump at the crossover till now there is a low evidence that its a pronounced driver or enclosure resonance but rather an effect of the (poor) crossover implementation, see also the measurements of its each individual drivers which show the main reason of that hump:
1597016300603.png
 
Last edited:

aarons915

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 20, 2019
Messages
686
Likes
1,142
Location
Chicago, IL
Thank you, he doesn't really claim something really different than I do:

As you can see he says such behaviour doesn't necessarily need to be due to resonances and he even uses the term resonances in quotation marks.

To close this issue, I don't want to say that LS50 surely might not have a resonance there (if you look at detailed driver and enclosures measurements you will see or simulate hundreds of (hopefully well damped) resonances/eigenmodes) but that for that broad hump at the crossover till now there is a low evidence that its a pronounced driver or enclosure resonance but rather an effect of the (poor) crossover implementation, see also the measurements of its each individual drivers which show the main reason of that hump:
View attachment 77356

The reason for the resonance doesn't matter(ie it doesn't matter if it's because of the crossover), the measurements clearly show it. If you'd prefer to be in denial that's your choice but it's not really on topic in this thread.
 

thewas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
6,897
Likes
16,901
The reason for the resonance doesn't matter(ie it doesn't matter if it's because of the crossover), the measurements clearly show it. If you'd prefer to be in denial that's your choice but it's not really on topic in this thread.
The one who is in denial is you who ignores also what Toole says and that a bump just due to a non optimal addition of drivers is technically not a resonance. You might call it this way so but its technically plain wrong.
 

aarons915

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 20, 2019
Messages
686
Likes
1,142
Location
Chicago, IL
The one who is in denial is you who ignores also what Toole says and that a bump just due to a non optimal addition of drivers is technically not a resonance. You might call it this way so but its technically plain wrong.

Again it doesn't matter why something happens, we're strictly talking about the end result.
 
Top Bottom