Dynaudio LYD 7 vs Emit 10 vs Neumann KH120 for producing music

[valerian]

Hello everyone this is my first post here.

I'm deciding between these speakers for music production.

Neumann KH120 used, 2 years old, 800€
Dynaudio LYD 7 new, 900€
Dynaudio Emit 10 used, 10 months old, 365€ (pair for a price of one new speaker). These are passive speakers which need an amplifier. I'm looking at something like Marantz 70s for 600€.

Which of these combinations would be the least fatigue and smoothest experience. Would a passive speaker with an amplifier even be suitable for composing and producing music.

One guy from gear space bought Evoke as studio monitors and this is what he wrote.

https://gearspace.com/board/music-computers/1275776-new-dynaudio-evoke-20-a.html

Evoke is a step higher than Emit but Emit uses the same tweeter and similar woofer and most people say they are surprisingly close even though the price difference is big.

I have very sensitive ears and get tired and fatigue easily. I can't work with my Focal CMS50 anymore. Right now they are basically useless. Not only are they sounding too harsh for me but they also produce so many noises which come from bad cheap components. I would never again go for Focal. All this started one years after buying them and it got only worse and worse through the years. One speaker was at service two times because the power supply died. They are now 12 years old and I barely used them in the last few years.

 

[watchnerd]

I have the LYD 5 as near field monitors for my iMac, fed by an RME ADI-2 Pro.

It's very non-fatiguing, but also detailed.

 

[SuicideSquid]

There are ASR reviews for both the KH120 and the LYD7. KH120 has less distortion at normal listening levels. The LYD 7 has very good response on axis but Dynaudio made the weird decision to cross over the woofer and tweeter an octave above the normal range, so off-axis response isn't great.

In my own subjective experience, the KH120 are fantastic and LYD 7 are totally fine. I've never heard the Emit 10 but as a general rule of thumb passive monitors are not as efficient or accurate as active monitors (as active monitors cross over the signal prior to amplification which, all other things being equal, is more accurate and efficient than passive crossovers which have to split the already amplified signal and attenuate the unwanted frequencies).

If these are going in a living room, I'd take a hard look at the LYD7 as they're gorgeous and perform well, but for studio monitor or PC use I'd take the KH120s.

 

[Somafunk]

I have Dynaudio LYD 48’s and two Dynaudio 18s subwoofers. If I was in your position looking for a monitor for producing music I’d be leaning towards the Dynaudio LYD7’s, purely for the fact they are new and will come with a 2yr warranty and a possible extended European warranty for electrical/electronic goods. Some European sellers will offer for free a 6yr warranty on goods they sell so check where you buy from.

 

[DVDdoug]

DISCLAIMER - I don't own monitors and I don't do audio production.

Without a subwoofer, I'd get at-least 8-inch woofers. But maybe 7-inches is "close enough". The JBL 308 gets good reviews and they are only about $400 a pair.

Even then you might need a subwoofer for realistic bass you can "feel".

As long as the monitors aren't "terrible" they should be OK after you learn what a good mix sounds like on them in your studio/room. Of course, they shouldn't be annoying or fatiguing to your ears.

I recommend getting a measurement mic and REW to measure and EQ your speakers/room. If you can add bass traps and possibly other acoustic treatment that will probably help too. (Diagnosis before treatment.)

Which of these combinations would be the least fatigue

That's psychology.

In the pro world, near-field monitors are secondary monitors.
This is Floyd Toole:

Main monitors-
Large, usually in-wall installed, powerful full bandwidth systems capable of very high sound levels.

Mid-field Monitors-
Medium-sized loudspeakers that may be full bandwidth or may use subwoofers, localized at moderate distance in front of the main console, positioned to minimize reflections from the working surfaces.

Near-field monitors-
Small loudspeakers placed on the meter ridge of the recording console. The reflection for the working surface is part of the sound heard from thee loudspeakers, and their locations may cause them to interfere with what is heard from main or mid-field monitors. Listeners are in the acoustical near field of the source, meaning that the small changes in head location cause changes in the sounds arriving at the ears.

 

[ddaudio]

Purely subjective, but I have a soft spot for Dynaudio speakers. My main system speakers are Contour 1.3 which are still going strong after 25 years and I fully expect them to outlast me.They cost about £1300 at the time, the modern equivalent Contour standmount is £4500.

I also have a much cheaper pair of DM 2/6 speakers, which would be a predecessor of the Emit 10. Surprisingly close to the Contour in sound, very open but not in any way harsh. Obviously no real sub bass, but good from 50hz up with a little wall reinforcement. And they can go loud, but depending on the size of your room, a decent 50 watt amp is probably all you need. Also works well with a class D mini-amp (Ayima A07) because although they're slightly current hungry, there's no big impedance swings which can upset the frequency response of those amps. I guess it would be the same with the Emit, as a benign impedance curve is a long standing Dynaudio design philosophy.

Compared to a very well reviewed Wharfedale floorstander at around the same price it is (dangerous phrase coming up) night and day. In comparison, the Wharfedales sound like you've put them inside a biscuit tin - muffled and thin sounding at the same time.

If it was me, if the Emit 10s you've found are in mint condition, I wouldn't hesitate. But try to listen to them first.

 

[valerian]

Thank you guys, I didn't expect so many replies in such a short time. As I expected there will be different opinions. Each of you chose a different option. Speakers really depend mostly on personal taste. The best would be if I could hear them but there is no way I can do this unless I order all these options and test them in my studio but this would be a bit ridiculous and then having all the issues with sending back all these big boxes.

Btw I found a new option Mackie HR624 mk2, new with 2 years warranty for 790€. It's a bit older model compared to other speakers in my list so would it even be as good as them as tech moves forward quite quickly.

I have the LYD 5 as near field monitors for my iMac, fed by an RME ADI-2 Pro.

It's very non-fatiguing, but also detailed.

This is the reason I'm looking at Dynaudio speakers because I saw quite some comments online that they are one of the smoothest and least fatigue speakers, no matter if passive or active.

There are ASR reviews for both the KH120 and the LYD7. KH120 has less distortion at normal listening levels. The LYD 7 has very good response on axis but Dynaudio made the weird decision to cross over the woofer and tweeter an octave above the normal range, so off-axis response isn't great.

In my own subjective experience, the KH120 are fantastic and LYD 7 are totally fine. I've never heard the Emit 10 but as a general rule of thumb passive monitors are not as efficient or accurate as active monitors (as active monitors cross over the signal prior to amplification which, all other things being equal, is more accurate and efficient than passive crossovers which have to split the already amplified signal and attenuate the unwanted frequencies).

If these are going in a living room, I'd take a hard look at the LYD7 as they're gorgeous and perform well, but for studio monitor or PC use I'd take the KH120s.

I was looking at this guy's video comparison of KH120 vs LYD 7 and he clearly prefers LYD 7.

I know it might all be taste depending and how we hear things as our ears are different and we all hear things differently but he has given some good points. He also said Neumanns are crisper harsher sounding which makes sense as they have a titanium fabric dome tweeter while Dynaudio have a soft/silk dome tweeter which would probably suit better my sensitive ears?

I had Neumann KH150 at home for two weeks. Got them for testing from a friend and honestly I was not blown away for a 3k speaker. Of course they were great sounding and quite different compared to my Focal CMS 50, better of course but 3k for a pair, uh. I found them a bit too crisp and tiresome even though I turned down highs completely on the back panel like I have on my CMS50. But they were a bit easier on my ears as my Focal CMS 50. I read that the old KH120 is less crisp and darker sounding then the newer KH120 II and KH150 which I might prefer.

DISCLAIMER - I don't own monitors and I don't do audio production.

Without a subwoofer, I'd get at-least 8-inch woofers. But maybe 7-inches is "close enough". The JBL 308 gets good reviews and they are only about $400 a pair.

Even then you might need a subwoofer for realistic bass you can "feel".

As long as the monitors aren't "terrible" they should be OK after you learn what a good mix sounds like on them in your studio/room. Of course, they shouldn't be annoying or fatiguing to your ears.

I recommend getting a measurement mic and REW to measure and EQ your speakers/room. If you can add bass traps and possibly other acoustic treatment that will probably help too. (Diagnosis before treatment.)


That's psychology.

In the pro world, near-field monitors are secondary monitors.
This is Floyd Toole:

JBL is a no go for me, not only does it look ugly but it's also fatigue according to some people and anything I have heard from JBL was fatigue. I would rather take the Mackie MR624 over JBL.

I have hyperacusis and I'm very sensitive to harsher speakers, some are a lot more fatigue than others so for me it's not really psychological.

Purely subjective, but I have a soft spot for Dynaudio speakers. My main system speakers are Contour 1.3 which are still going strong after 25 years and I fully expect them to outlast me.They cost about £1300 at the time, the modern equivalent Contour standmount is £4500.

I also have a much cheaper pair of DM 2/6 speakers, which would be a predecessor of the Emit 10. Surprisingly close to the Contour in sound, very open but not in any way harsh. Obviously no real sub bass, but good from 50hz up with a little wall reinforcement. And they can go loud, but depending on the size of your room, a decent 50 watt amp is probably all you need. Also works well with a class D mini-amp (Ayima A07) because although they're slightly current hungry, there's no big impedance swings which can upset the frequency response of those amps. I guess it would be the same with the Emit, as a benign impedance curve is a long standing Dynaudio design philosophy.

Compared to a very well reviewed Wharfedale floorstander at around the same price it is (dangerous phrase coming up) night and day. In comparison, the Wharfedales sound like you've put them inside a biscuit tin - muffled and thin sounding at the same time.

If it was me, if the Emit 10s you've found are in mint condition, I wouldn't hesitate. But try to listen to them first.

This used Emit 10s I'm looking at are in great condition, looking like new from the pictures and the guy said they are like new and that he treated them very carefully.

I was looking at these small chinese amps like Aiyima, Fosi... but I'm afraid they would sound bad or cheap and wouldn't be strong enough to power Emit's which are a bit demanding. I was also looking at the popular Wiim Amp. Would this be a good option? A really good option would probably be the Marantz Model M1 but it's a bit expensive.

Do you think that the Emit 10 with a budget amp like Aiyima, Fosi or Wiim Amp would even sound as good as LYD 7 or Neumann KH120?

 

[ddaudio]

This used Emit 10s I'm looking at are in great condition, looking like new from the pictures and the guy said they are like new and that he treated them very carefully.

I was looking at these small chinese amps like Aiyima, Fosi... but I'm afraid they would sound bad or cheap and wouldn't be strong enough to power Emit's which are a bit demanding. I was also looking at the popular Wiim Amp. Would this be a good option? A really good option would probably be the Marantz Model M1 but it's a bit expensive.

Do you think that the Emit 10 with a budget amp like Aiyima, Fosi or Wiim Amp would even sound as good as LYD 7 or Neumann KH120?

I can't comment on the other speakers in your shortlist, but the amplification requirement is very much dependent on you room size, listening position and volume.

An amp will only sound "bad" or "cheap" if you are driving it beyond its ability to deliver clean power. But don't obsess about small differences in amp power output since doubling the power will only get you an extra 3dB and to double the volume you need 10x the amplifier power. Do check amplifier power measurements (there are lots on this site) and for a Dynaudio speaker look for something that works well with a 4ohm load.

With my Dynaudio speakers (sensitivity in the same ball park as the Emit 10) in a 5m x 4m room and a 3m listening distance the aforementioned Aiyima goes much louder than I would ever want.

As I mentioned above, the Achilles heel of the cheaper class D amps is frequency response varying with impedance (mostly important in the treble), but I didn't find this a problem with the Aiyima A07 with either of my Dynaudio speakers. Amir measures this in his reviews.

If you need low bass, consider a subwoofer, which could work out cheaper than bigger speakers and amplification. Also you might find it easier to tune the bass response in your room by positioning a mono subwoofer rather than having to deal with low bass from stereo speakers when each speaker might have a very different in-room response due to positioning. Ideally, if using a subwoofer, you would want an amp with a sub output and a variable high pass filter for its speaker outputs (the sub output doesn't need to be filtered, the subwoofer will take care of that).

An important caveat: my hearing tops out at 12khz these days, so if any of the amp/speaker combinations I have heard do bad things above that frequency, I would be blissfully unaware.

 

[SuicideSquid]

I know it might all be taste depending and how we hear things as our ears are different and we all hear things differently but he has given some good points. He also said Neumanns are crisper harsher sounding which makes sense as they have a titanium fabric dome tweeter while Dynaudio have a soft/silk dome tweeter which would probably suit better my sensitive ears?

I had Neumann KH150 at home for two weeks. Got them for testing from a friend and honestly I was not blown away for a 3k speaker. Of course they were great sounding and quite different compared to my Focal CMS 50, better of course but 3k for a pair, uh. I found them a bit too crisp and tiresome even though I turned down highs completely on the back panel like I have on my CMS50. But they were a bit easier on my ears as my Focal CMS 50. I read that the old KH120 is less crisp and darker sounding then the newer KH120 II and KH150 which I might prefer.

Do you think that the Emit 10 with a budget amp like Aiyima, Fosi or Wiim Amp would even sound as good as LYD 7 or Neumann KH120?

This is the danger of uncontrolled, sighted comparisons.

Here are the measurements for the KH120 mkii and Lyd 5 - not identical to these speakers, but the LYD 5 and LYD 7 use the same tweeter, the difference between them will be primarily in bass extension, and the KH120 and KH120 mk2 differ primarily in the inclusion of DSP in the mkii, so we can use these for rough comparisons.

The treble output virtually identical, with the KH120 being slightly smoother than the LYD 5. We're talking about differences of +/- about half a dB between 2k and 20k, which you will not be able to consciously perceive. A claim that one of these speakers will sound overly bright or harsh and the other will sound natural or neutral is just not borne out by the measurements.

There is no inherent difference between a metal-dome tweeter and a silk-dome tweeter that makes a metal tweeter brighter than a silk tweeter - you can make a silk tweeter sound bright and a metal tweeter sound mellow. Claims that metal sounds bright and silk sounds soft or warm are entirely psychoacoustics, based on how we perceive metal vs. fabric visually or to the touch.

Again, I cannot make any statement about how the Emit 10 will sound because I haven't heard it or seen any quality measurements of it, but all other things being equal, an active speaker is going to be more efficient and more accurate than a passive speaker.

 

[valerian]

This is the danger of uncontrolled, sighted comparisons.

Here are the measurements for the KH120 mkii and Lyd 5 - not identical to these speakers, but the LYD 5 and LYD 7 use the same tweeter, the difference between them will be primarily in bass extension, and the KH120 and KH120 mk2 differ primarily in the inclusion of DSP in the mkii, so we can use these for rough comparisons.
View attachment 446182

View attachment 446183
The treble output virtually identical, with the KH120 being slightly smoother than the LYD 5. We're talking about differences of +/- about half a dB between 2k and 20k, which you will not be able to consciously perceive. A claim that one of these speakers will sound overly bright or harsh and the other will sound natural or neutral is just not borne out by the measurements.

There is no inherent difference between a metal-dome tweeter and a silk-dome tweeter that makes a metal tweeter brighter than a silk tweeter - you can make a silk tweeter sound bright and a metal tweeter sound mellow. Claims that metal sounds bright and silk sounds soft or warm are entirely psychoacoustics, based on how we perceive metal vs. fabric visually or to the touch.

Again, I cannot make any statement about how the Emit 10 will sound because I haven't heard it or seen any quality measurements of it, but all other things being equal, an active speaker is going to be more efficient and more accurate than a passive speaker.

Thanks, I have already checked these measurements. KH120 II is a much improved speaker compared to the original KH120. The measurements proved it and owners of both models confirmed it from experiences. It's so much improved that even the smaller KH80 can match or even beat the original KH120 in some things. While LYD 7 is better then LYD 5 so comparing KH120 II with LYD 5 is not exactly like comparing LYD 7 with KH120, it's a bit unfair actually.

I'm not sure if it's worth paying 800€ for two years old KH120 compared to brand new LYD 7 for 900€ which is also a newer speaker in general.

Emit speakers are supposed to be better speakers than LYD because they use newer and better components. Erin reviewed Emit 20 and he highly praised them.

Dynaudio Emit 20 Speaker Review

Dynaudio Emit 20 Speaker Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

I have decided to try Emit 10 with Fosi ZA3 amp first. I don't even need to buy new cables or anything for this combo as the amp has XLR inputs and I already have cables for this and also have some spare cables from my home cinema system.

I'm really curious how a passive speaker would compare to an active studio speaker in studio use. If I won't like it or find it impossible to produce and mix on them, I can still buy the used KH120 and if the guy will sell them by then I can still go for LYD 7.

 

[SuicideSquid]

KH120 II is a much improved speaker compared to the original KH120. The measurements proved it and owners of both models confirmed it from experiences.

According to whom?

Here's a Spinorama measurement from the original KH120 which shows that outside of a small bass hump it measures very similarly to the KH120 mkii. Again, biggest difference between these speakers is the inclusion of DSP in the mkii.

Emit speakers are supposed to be better speakers than LYD because they use newer and better components. Erin reviewed Emit 20 and he highly praised them.

Again, according to whom? This is not a reasonable conclusion to draw based on the link you included, which shows the Emit 20 having a lots of peaks and valleys throughout its frequency response range, suggesting a very coloured speaker (and a fairly bright one with a significant rise between 10 and 20kHz - since you're complaining about that with other speakers, it's odd you'd favour the Emit). As a hifi speaker it likely sounds fine, but I would not trust this speaker for monitor use. LYD series have much more even frequency response through midrange and treble.

I'm not sure if it's worth paying 800€ for two years old KH120 compared to brand new LYD 7 for 900€ which is also a newer speaker in general.

I have decided to try Emit 10 with Fosi ZA3 amp first. I don't even need to buy new cables or anything for this combo as the amp has XLR inputs and I already have cables for this and also have some spare cables from my cinema system.

One wonders why you sought advice at all, then.

 

[valerian]

Again, according to whom? This is not a reasonable conclusion to draw based on the link you included, which shows the Emit 20 having a lots of peaks and valleys throughout its frequency response range, suggesting a very coloured speaker (and a fairly bright one with a significant rise between 10 and 20kHz - since you're complaining about that with other speakers, it's odd you'd favour the Emit). As a hifi speaker it likely sounds fine, but I would not trust this speaker for monitor use. LYD series have much more even frequency response through midrange and treble.

Uh, I rewatched Erin's Emit 20 review. The last time I watched it was like three months ago and since then I have seen so many different videos and reviews from various speakers that I totally forgot about the boost in 10-20kHz and the shimmering that he mentioned. Thanks for reminding me and for providing the measurements for KH120.

According to whom?

Here's a Spinorama measurement from the original KH120 which shows that outside of a small bass hump it measures very similarly to the KH120 mkii. Again, biggest difference between these speakers is the inclusion of DSP in the mkii.

I was reading almost the whole KHM120 II thread through and there were quite some comments from owners of both KH120 and KH120 II that KH120 II is a bigger improvement that they expected.

 

[unpluggged]

I was reading almost the whole KHM120 II thread through and there were quite some comments from owners of both KH120 and KH120 II that KH120 II is a bigger improvement that they expected.

Totally explained by the bass extension and by phase-linear crossover. I doubt I'd notice any differences with KH 750 DSP taking care of both aspects.

Also, the KH 120 II should be regarded as the 5" version of the KH 150, not as an updated KH 120.

 

[valerian]

It's been a while since I started this tpoic and in the meantime I tried Emit 10 + Fosi za3 but I was not fully satisfied. The combo sounded similar to my Focal CSM50 but overall with less detail yet too crisp. I could feel that the silk dome tweeter was producing a more gentle sound compared to the aluminium tweeter on my Focal CMS50 but the boost on the highs was clearly noticeable aswell. They sounded nicer off axis but then the speakers lost too much detail for mixing. This combo also couldn't go even close to the volume of CMS50, not a problem for me as I don't listen loud but the combo already started to sound more compressed and worse compared to CMS50 at normal levels. It also didn't sound as good as CMS50 at quiet volumes and the right channel dominated at lower levels which was very annoying so in the end I returned both Emit 10 and za3.

Then I saw a great deal (700€) on iLoud Precision 5 and grabbed them immediately and couldn't be happier. These speakers are amazing. I can't believe how big they sound and how much bass they produce. Not boomy bass but deep low bass that you can feel in your chest. They also sound great at low volumes, can go unbelievably loud and are less fatigue then both CMS50 and Emit 10, yet they show even more detail. From what I remember they sound quite similar to Neumann KH150 that I got for a test but a bit less fatigue, a little smoother which is simply mind blowing. On top you get a mic for room calibration with them and even presets that mimic the sound of other brand speakers. I really can't believe how good these sound, especially for the price that I paid.