Dynaudio Core 47 Review (Professional Monitor)

[skyfly]

Waveguides & Directivity, so that's where they've missed out on this speaker I think.

Decent off axis response is possible without waveguides: Dynaudio Countour 20 https://www.stereophile.com/content/dynaudio-contour-20-loudspeaker-measurements

 

[skyfly]

On the (off) topic of Dynaudio not measuring well or not caring about dispersion in general, here are two very much homemade charts taken at 1m that will give you an idea of horizontal and vertical dispersion of another model, also with DSP, that is the Focus XD 60. I took these last night at low level because everyone was asleep. This is also a small room so consider that.
View attachment 142825

View attachment 142826

It looks like British speaker (Spendor, Harbeth, etc.).
Those manufacturers seem to avoid smooth off-axis curve intentionally. Instead, they try to get far off axis curves that, as we go from right to left (high to low frequency), dips down before the crossover and returns back after passing crossover. The result: on-axis curve fairly flat; far-off-axis curses with dip around crossover. I guess this is very intentional after plenty of research. Those manufacturers are capable of getting Revel like curves if they want.

 

[Erizo]

Hi Bro,

not trying to argue and say you did a bad purchase, just my speculation.

As you've mentioned your hearing have developed minor problems due to not using ear plugs during DJ and metallic tweeters will sound harsh to you, as such maybe the impression subjective will be different from majority of ppl.

And sometimes, I feel that the psychological impact is way more powerful than one thought it really is. like back in the days the norm is still use ipod with earbuds playing downloaded low bitrate mp3 files, I and other audiophiles kind of feel it's very good and true to life sound, once we got into a showroom with proper treatment and hifi speakers which plays the missing bass, I feel that the hifi is muddy also as you know, "the bass is wayyy overpowered and mask the vocals!" and then when I got used to the KEF X300A which have weired resonance at 1-2khz region and then a rolled off treble, I changed to genelec and at first week it sounds harsh treble due to the now much more neutral HF, but after a week when I adapted the harshness goes away and I can enjoy it a lot and it now sounds more right to me, maybe same will happen for my next toy or whatever.

So I believe either you listened in showrooms where the environment affected the sound a lot more, or when you have a trial pair for short term listening, the KRK Rokits difference to whatever signature you adapted to will be apparent. My view is that for HiFi/entertainment use, enjoy whatever you like, a lot of ppl enjoyed Bose and nothing wrong with that, I get my time when I was still a teenager in school with altec lansing entry level 2.1 computer speakers costing $50, hey it's much better than the Dell included $10 speakers, at least have a bit of bass no? but if it's for studio, I would calibrate mine to be as close to flat as possible, as that is what it really sounds like so I can mix to make it real good sounding in hifi systems, yet another pair of whatever broken speakers to make sure the balance would be ok even on crap phone built in speakers

Definitely not arguing. Just having a good conversation on my end. Anyway, my first set of monitors was in 2011 where I had a majority of my hearing still. I had 3030a monitors from Behringer at the time. I just remember how harsh those ribbon tweeters were. It was like someone was forcing a needle through my eardrum. So after a year or so I switched to JBL 8inch LSRs and all my issues went away. The silk dome tweeter was just so much better especially for long mixing sessions. Yea of course most of my highs are shaved off now. I can hear up to about 13khz at 34 years and got tinnitus but the low and mids is the most critical for me since I am mixing mostly bass heavy music. Most of the monitors I have previewed have been in studios. Both bedroom and professional studios. I understand room treatment and other factors could change the way I perceive a particular monitor. Maybe on some I could of just used a dipswitch on the back to give it a darker sound and that would fix the issue on some of the brighter ones. But usually I was in situations where i didn't want to fiddle with that person's studio equipment or I just didn't really think about doing so. . I am definitely happy with my purchase because without looking at any raw data from ASR and just listening to them in my studio. I can notice a huge difference and can hear details and errors I never heard before in the mix

 

[YSC]

Definitely not arguing. Just having a good conversation on my end. Anyway, my first set of monitors was in 2011 where I had a majority of my hearing still. I had 3030a monitors from Behringer at the time. I just remember how harsh those ribbon tweeters were. It was like someone was forcing a needle through my eardrum. So after a year or so I switched to JBL 8inch LSRs and all my issues went away. The silk dome tweeter was just so much better especially for long mixing sessions. Yea of course most of my highs are shaved off now. I can hear up to about 13khz at 34 years and got tinnitus but the low and mids is the most critical for me since I am mixing mostly bass heavy music. Most of the monitors I have previewed have been in studios. Both bedroom and professional studios. I understand room treatment and other factors could change the way I perceive a particular monitor. Maybe on some I could of just used a dipswitch on the back to give it a darker sound and that would fix the issue on some of the brighter ones. But usually I was in situations where i didn't want to fiddle with that person's studio equipment or I just didn't really think about doing so. . I am definitely happy with my purchase because without looking at any raw data from ASR and just listening to them in my studio. I can notice a huge difference and can hear details and errors I never heard before in the mix

I was kind of afraid my not so good english would make it sound insulting, but gosh, 13khz at 34 years old is pretty bad in my book, I am now 36 and recent test tone (youtube) test with the genelecs I can hear very clearly 17khz and gone into complete silence at 18khz. just wild guess maybe it's the tinnitutus might be the cause? I kind of don't believe in absolute terms soft vs hard dome could make such a difference as the wave frequency would be the same, SPL is related to the FR and should be the same, unless the soft dome have a lot more harmonic distortions which sounds more pleasing to your ears I guess (saw from Amirm's graph at 1khz 96db and 2khz @86db+ have quite some distortion peaking). that might also be the reason of your perception of more revealing of detail as it added distortion at those ranges where vocals are within range, added distortion makes minor error more apparent or easier to sound "not right"

 

[o2so]

It looks like British speaker (Spendor, Harbeth, etc.).
Those manufacturers seem to avoid smooth off-axis curve intentionally. Instead, they try to get far off axis curves that, as we go from right to left (high to low frequency), dips down before the crossover and returns back after passing crossover. The result: on-axis curve fairly flat; far-off-axis curses with dip around crossover. I guess this is very intentional after plenty of research. Those manufacturers are capable of getting Revel like curves if they want.

I think it looks pretty good up to at least 45 degrees...

 

[Frgirard]

I am definitely happy with my purchase because without looking at any raw data from ASR and just listening to them in my studio. I can notice a huge difference and can hear details and errors I never heard before in the mix

 

[Frgirard]

It looks like British speaker (Spendor, Harbeth, etc.).
Those manufacturers seem to avoid smooth off-axis curve intentionally. Instead, they try to get far off axis curves that, as we go from right to left (high to low frequency), dips down before the crossover and returns back after passing crossover. The result: on-axis curve fairly flat; far-off-axis curses with dip around crossover. I guess this is very intentional after plenty of research. Those manufacturers are capable of getting Revel like curves if they want.

it costs less to produce.

 

[Erizo]

I was kind of afraid my not so good english would make it sound insulting, but gosh, 13khz at 34 years old is pretty bad in my book, I am now 36 and recent test tone (youtube) test with the genelecs I can hear very clearly 17khz and gone into complete silence at 18khz. just wild guess maybe it's the tinnitutus might be the cause? I kind of don't believe in absolute terms soft vs hard dome could make such a difference as the wave frequency would be the same, SPL is related to the FR and should be the same, unless the soft dome have a lot more harmonic distortions which sounds more pleasing to your ears I guess (saw from Amirm's graph at 1khz 96db and 2khz @86db+ have quite some distortion peaking). that might also be the reason of your perception of more revealing of detail as it added distortion at those ranges where vocals are within range, added distortion makes minor error more apparent or easier to sound "not right"

It could be the sound stage / imaging that the 3 way provides maybe? This is my first 3 way studio monitor.
Also I never play the speaker higher than 80db except when I just wanna crank it up a bit after I finish a track Mostly listening at 70 to 75db to save my ears

 

[YSC]

It could be the sound stage / imaging that the 3 way provides maybe? This is my first 3 way studio monitor.

does it? somehow I imagine with a 3 way it should have less stress on the driver and hence less distortion, but then integration of sound would be worse than anything 2 way which is in turn worse than coaxial, in nearfield I usually can hear sound source imaging error at near field

 

[ctrl]

Maybe because I am listening to it from a producer point of view compared to a scientific point of view. I feel I can pinpoint mistakes in a mix much easier with less ear fatigue. I also compared the monitor to Adam a77xa and Yamaha hs8. They just sounded more detailed than all of those and I could pickup mistakes in a mix much easier.

In a heavily damped studio and from a producer's point of view, one can certainly set other priorities in evaluating a loudspeaker.

But beginners might not be aware of the consequences of the high crossover frequency and the chosen filter order.
Many place their nearfield monitors over the PC screen. This often places the ear height vertically at -10° to -20° if the monitor cannot be tilted.

No serious producer today will work without calibration at the listening position, but the effects of the above (crossover frequency, filter order) are so dramatic that any calibration program will be sorely tested to correct the effects, and any slightest error will have a big impact.

Now let's have a look at the vertical frequency responses of +-10 and +-20 degrees.
First the normal vertical measurements with a smoothing of 1/6oct and 30dB scale (for better readability), then normalized to the axis frequency response.

At -10° to -20° we see dips with small Q of 8-10dB (and possibly stronger dips are between -10 to -20 degrees), the minimum of the dips shifts quickly from 6.7kHz to 4.7kHz.
No calibration program can correct this so that it fits for +-5° freedom of movement in vertical direction, the changes are simply too large.

For comparison, the same consideration for the Neumann KH310 - comparable concept, but different crossover frequency and filter order:

I don't think there is much need to explain.

The problems faced by every calibration program are also well illustrated by the sound power curve. In the range 2-4kHz there is a clear increase (this ensures the high resolution and the richness of detail, but can also sound harsh and bright), in the range 4-7kHz there is a drop.

Without precise calibration to the listening position, this monitor should not be used under any circumstances - IMHO.

 

[Erizo]

does it? somehow I imagine with a 3 way it should have less stress on the driver and hence less distortion, but then integration of sound would be worse than anything 2 way which is in turn worse than coaxial, in nearfield I usually can hear sound source imaging error at near field

Funny you talk coaxial. I have a pair of Tannoy gold 8s and I was worried that the "point source advantage would go away" but I do not really hear any difference at all at the same seating position.

I also read this about coaxial design. Interesting.

"Another drawback is that the low frequencies tend to modulate the high frequencies, causing greater intermodulation distortion. The Tannoy style of coaxial, with the woofer forming part of the high frequency horn, had greater intermodulation distortion. Designs similar to the Altec 604 have further problems with diffraction of the low frequencies around the central horn, and with rearward emanations from the horn body reflected forward by the woofer out of time with direct sound. All of the problems with sound waves tend to increase with sound pressure level, causing significant shifts in tone as the loudspeaker changes volume."

 

[YSC]

Funny you talk coaxial. I have a pair of Tannoy gold 8s and I was worried that the "point source advantage would go away" but I do not really hear any difference at all at the same seating position.

I also read this about coaxial design. Interesting.

"Another drawback is that the low frequencies tend to modulate the high frequencies, causing greater intermodulation distortion. The Tannoy style of coaxial, with the woofer forming part of the high frequency horn, had greater intermodulation distortion. Designs similar to the Altec 604 have further problems with diffraction of the low frequencies around the central horn, and with rearward emanations from the horn body reflected forward by the woofer out of time with direct sound. All of the problems with sound waves tend to increase with sound pressure level, causing significant shifts in tone as the loudspeaker changes volume."

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/tannoy-gold-8-rew-measurements.14738/

I saw this and noticed that the owner did -4db in bass (wall boost?) and -2 for highs and yet the highs seems a bit shelved and quite uneven, somehow I have the impression that Tannoys don't have commonly talked smoother and wider sweet spot as we commonly talk, for KEF and Genelec the ones or Devialet phantoms my impression was that it's quite nice as imaging is concerned, especially when going side to side as TV speaker for family use.

 

[Erizo]

In a heavily damped studio and from a producer's point of view, one can certainly set other priorities in evaluating a loudspeaker.

But beginners might not be aware of the consequences of the high crossover frequency and the chosen filter order.
Many place their nearfield monitors over the PC screen. This often places the ear height vertically at -10° to -20° if the monitor cannot be tilted.

No serious producer today will work without calibration at the listening position, but the effects of the above (crossover frequency, filter order) are so dramatic that any calibration program will be sorely tested to correct the effects, and any slightest error will have a big impact.

Now let's have a look at the vertical frequency responses of +-10 and +-20 degrees.
First the normal vertical measurements with a smoothing of 1/6oct and 30dB scale (for better readability), then normalized to the axis frequency response.
View attachment 142899 View attachment 142900
At -10° to -20° we see dips with small Q of 8-10dB (and possibly stronger dips are between -10 to -20 degrees), the minimum of the dips shifts quickly from 6.7kHz to 4.7kHz.
No calibration program can correct this so that it fits for +-5° freedom of movement in vertical direction, the changes are simply too large.

For comparison, the same consideration for the Neumann KH310 - comparable concept, but different crossover frequency and filter order:
View attachment 142906 View attachment 142907
I don't think there is much need to explain.

The problems faced by every calibration program are also well illustrated by the sound power curve. In the range 2-4kHz there is a clear increase (this ensures the high resolution and the richness of detail, but can also sound harsh and bright), in the range 4-7kHz there is a drop.
View attachment 142901
Without precise calibration to the listening position, this monitor should not be used under any circumstances - IMHO.

This is a preview of the speaker in my studio. It is the same height as my tannoy. I am not a very tall person so it worked out to where I have a comfortable chair height and speakers not needing any tilt.

 

[ctrl]

Also I never play the speaker higher than 80db except when I just wanna crank it up a bit after I finish a track Mostly listening at 70 to 75db to save my ears

Isn't that too low as the final listening level?
The recommendation, as far as I know (I'm not into music production), is to listen at the flattest curve of the Fletcher-Munson curves - i.e. at 80-87dB SPL, in order to keep loudness effects as low as possible.

 

[Erizo]

Isn't that too low as the final listening level?
The recommendation, as far as I know (I'm not into music production), is to listen at the flattest curve of the Fletcher-Munson curves - i.e. at 80-87dB SPL, in order to keep loudness effects as low as possible.

https://www.rickallencreative.com/production-buzz/best-listening-level-mixing


I have a smaller control room

 

[temps]

Isn't that too low as the final listening level?
The recommendation, as far as I know (I'm not into music production), is to listen at the flattest curve of the Fletcher-Munson curves - i.e. at 80-87dB SPL, in order to keep loudness effects as low as possible.

there are tools to compensate this now, I work at lower levels most of the time and only do brief stints at 85dB. The brilliant Dan Worrall showed me that trick. Why Is Slick EQ M In My Monitor FX Chain? - YouTube

 

[Frgirard]

Isn't that too low as the final listening level?
The recommendation, as far as I know (I'm not into music production), is to listen at the flattest curve of the Fletcher-Munson curves - i.e. at 80-87dB SPL, in order to keep loudness effects as low as possible.

The fletcher murson curve is obsolete.
There are no rule. 69 73 or 83... In music, you work at spl level you are comfortable.
Over 73 dB is too LOUD.

 

[sarumbear]

Decent off axis response is possible without waveguides: Dynaudio Countour 20 https://www.stereophile.com/content/dynaudio-contour-20-loudspeaker-measurements

How did you interpret responses shown on figures 5 & 6 as decent?

 

[Erizo]

Here I have uploaded a video of the Tannoy first link And the core 47 in the second link. Playing the same track.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1m6B1TEym53NU6dOL9mj1JQe1rQ0v569C/view?usp=drivesdk


https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mFnMQVd7U66auACcDj1q90EZAQE3hcDR/view?usp=drivesdk

All dipswitches set to default settings.

 

[q3cpma]

The fletcher murson curve is obsolete.

What do you mean by "obsolete"? That ISO 226 is better?