Dutch reviewer Hans Beekhuyzen stated that an DIY Hypex based nc400 amp can't sound better than an much more expensive Class D amp

[DSJR]

As Hans an lots of ASR members I'm in my 60ties by reading information published here I gain knowledge even on my age. I did discover DSP like Room correction an it opened a new windows enjoying my music way more than before. Why because I'm open to new opinions an insight.

But only from a statistical point of view I read many opinions of people (not only on ASR) who own Mark Levinson, Krell an other expensive amp's they would turn to a modern Class D amp like Hypex if there expensive amp's are beyond repair. Those people have deep pockets to buy the best amp's available are they all wrong???

If I read you correctly, I'd respectfully suggest that many well heeled audiophiles buy on reputation, looks and high ticket price, the actual measured performance being irrelevant or at least, taken for granted... I've been told by several manufacturers with their main business in far eastern markets, that high ticket price is everything as it conveys status on the buyer/owner being able to afford it! I'd also suggest that since the late 70's, reliance by domestic users on decent well sorted measured performance declined rapidly and there remain pockets of resistance to measured performance to this day , where the perceived 'sound' matters most and a steadfast refusal to believe that measurements today are far more accurate than our ears, the latter depending on our minds' interpretation which can vary from day to day. Why do people today buy valve/tube gear when the bench performance of much of it is awful and the output transformers react so badly to a typical loudspeaker crossover, acting as a graphic equaliser a lot of the time? They buy these things on visuals and the eq effect gives a definite subjective alteration over what they had before... The fact a 'reviewer' prefers the more expensive option every time shows exactly the market he's aiming at - and it's a very lucrative one still, but may only last while us '60+'s' are still around to spend the money, at least in Europe.

Old Krell amps sell for the prices they do to nostalgia for a bygone high end era I reckon. I sugested to a purchaser that a Krell KSA100 might sound a bit 'foggy' today, accepting the preamp may have played a part. I was ignored, the purchase went ahead and the first thing he did was to replace a handful of electrolytic caps on the main board, claiming an instant 'improvement.' A few weeks later, he bought a manufacturer assembled Neurochrome 686 and had it shipped over here, balking at but paying the import duty (I think the total was around two grand). He was amazed how much 'better' it was, the KSA100 sounding much as I described in comparison.

Old Levinson may well be a better kettle of fish to start with, as I understand that 'those who know/knew' in the UK always preferred these to earlier Krell models, despite Levinson being kept away from certain UK reviewers at the time - there's a good reason why apparently.

 

[Zoomer]

I'm a bit surprised about the argument that ASR best not pay any attention to reviewers who make money from perpetuating the age-old audiophile myths and try to steer consumers away from getting best value for money.

Following that line of thought, why have negative reviews about equipment from BS manufacturers who are part of the same ecosystem as said reviewers?

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Yes somhow you are right. But destroying the bussinesmodel of snakeoil sellers is a benefit for human kind.

That's exactly right. When you walk into a bricks and mortar store, and tell the sales vulture you're looking for a power amplifier, the first question out of his mouth will, no doubt, be: "How much are you looking to spend?" That's because the worldview these people are pimping is that there exists a linear relationship between price and perfomance, and that simply could not be further from the truth, as witness by what the data reveals about any number of DACS, amps, and speakers reviewed on these pages.

The data does not lie, but salesmen do.

 

[restorer-john]

That's exactly right. When you walk into a bricks and mortar store, and tell the sales vulture you're looking for a power amplifier, the first question out of his mouth will, no doubt, be: "How much are you looking to spend?" That's because the worldview these people are pimping is that there exists a linear relationship between price and perfomance, and that simply could not be further from the truth, as witness by what the data reveals about any number of DACS, amps, and speakers reviewed on these pages.

The data does not lie, but salesmen do.

Oh come on!

What's the point wasting the salesperson and the customer's time extolling the virtues of an amplifier he either cannot afford or simply won't spend the money on?

People generally have budgets in mind with everything- it's a salesperson's JOB to fit the products to the budget (and then some..). By all means show them something aspirational, but there's zero point showing someone with $1K to spend on an amplifier a pair of $25K monoblocks. Unless you just want them to leave and never come back.

 

[Phorize]

In June this year i ask Hans in a private FB messages what his opinion was regarding class D amp's. As an example i sent him the test of Amirm review Hypex nc400


Hans in Holland is well known as a audio reviewer opinion guy with quit a track record so I thought his opinion counts.


https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-hypex-nc400-diy-amp.5907/&fbclid=IwAR17para_Rv4emSHVtOxoYykBKjp_EPYkGL0uihRuSzGAYIv-4NMRihPPRE


Basically he never came back on my question. Guess what he placed 2 October on his you tube channel an response regarding Class D amp's starting at minute 6:10.

I was supprised that he stated that if your goal is Serious sound quality you have to spent Serious money. This Hypex NC400 DIY amp can't be better than more expensive Class D amp's like a Mola Mola Kaluga class D power amp costing around 6.000,- euro. Now i don't want to end up if more expensive is better than less expensive but what amazed me he probably even not bother to read Amirm measurement (he stated in minute 8:50 that measurment in general don't say everything that explaind it probably) that i sent him or do a simple measurment him self or a blind a-b test between an expensive an a considerably less expensive Class D amp.

Let’s not bash him, I’d be interested if an engineering Phd from MIT working at space x said this, but as we expect Hans to make these sorts of statements, what more is there to say?

 

[Frank Dernie]

Old Levinson may well be a better kettle of fish to start with, as I understand that 'those who know/knew' in the UK always preferred these to earlier Krell models, despite Levinson being kept away from certain UK reviewers at the time - there's a good reason why apparently.

One of the things surprised me when I went to work in France in 1990 was how different the well reviewed brands were there compare to what I had been used to at home.
In the UK back then Krell was the star and Levinson "meh" whereas in France it was the opposite.
I decided then it was probably directly linked to the importer/manufacturer relationship with the magazines and individual journalists, with a dose of nationalism, and little to do with how good the hifi was.
It completely changed my outlook and I haven't read a review anywhere since without this in mind.

 

[theglobalelite]

He has a few videos on the "benefits" of Ethernet and USB purifiers, and says optical network cables "sound" better than traditional copper CAT5/6 network cables, so take his videos with a huge grain of salt. I feel sorry for these types of paranoid schizophrenics who believe they can heard it when a single electrical sine wave comes through slightly imperfectly.

 

[DSJR]

One of the things surprised me when I went to work in France in 1990 was how different the well reviewed brands were there compare to what I had been used to at home.
In the UK back then Krell was the star and Levinson "meh" whereas in France it was the opposite.
I decided then it was probably directly linked to the importer/manufacturer relationship with the magazines and individual journalists, with a dose of nationalism, and little to do with how good the hifi was.
It completely changed my outlook and I haven't read a review anywhere since without this in mind.

I was told the reason why, but it's second hand info. Let's just say on here, we trust that Amir's test gear is properly set up and giving accurate readings Maybe by design it doesn't drift off spec, but with older analogue based stuff it could happen in the past I gather

 

[Frank Dernie]

I was told the reason why, but it's second hand info. Let's just say on here, we trust that Amir's test gear is properly set up and giving accurate readings Maybe by design it doesn't drift off spec, but with older analogue based stuff it could happen in the past I gather

I rather ended up coming to the conclusion that hifi was more a fashion business than anything else. Enthusiasts have to have the latest thing and some brands are seen as better than others and have a substantial fan base.

 

[Thomas savage]

I decided then it was probably directly linked to the importer/manufacturer relationship with the magazines and individual journalists

Yep that's how it works ! The distributor controls everything

 

[deprogrammed]

These guys are the WORST. He says "if serious sound quality is your goal you need to spend serious money". Elitist and ignorant, scaring people away from a fun hobby. You need to be rich and have "proper" skills to appreciate the subtle nuances...blah, blah, blah.

Stroking egos to make things way more complicated/costly/important than it is.

 

[Phorize]

I'm a bit surprised about the argument that ASR best not pay any attention to reviewers who make money from perpetuating the age-old audiophile myths and try to steer consumers away from getting best value for money.

Following that line of thought, why have negative reviews about equipment from BS manufacturers who are part of the same ecosystem as said reviewers?

How about this:

1) Measuring equipment and reflecting on the results is fun and helps those who are interested make sensible decisions when buying equipment, and dramatically reduces the barriers of entry for us mere mortals into good sound.

2) Railing against misleading reviewers achieves absolutely nothing that anyone rational cares about. One has to be utterly unaware of the scientific literature on human behaviour to believe that a single reviewer will change their attitude, or lose followers because of being called out about the false information in their reviews. If that were the case, then FBI hostage negotiators would just rock up at the scene of a siege and berate the hostage takers for their lack of moral standing and logical errors. That’s the opposite of what they do, and for good reason, as the approach that you suggest is the shortest route to a pile of dead hostages for reasons that are so well documented in the literature of of cognitive neuroscience and human psychology that it’s becoming tedious to point them out. One doesn’t need to bother to read all the of the literature, the average airport book store has all the information you need,

There is a cost to this of course. How many manufacturers would be happy to send equipment in but won’t, not because they don’t value the measurements or agree with the overall principle of ASR, but because they don’t need the overhead of having to come into (real or perceived) contact with zealots? How many followers of people like HB would be quite happy to accept the evidence, but for his ability to say ‘Ignore those people, they just think they are the internet police’?

You may wish to notice something. Notice that it’s very difficult to disagree with what I say above on rational grounds, but how utterly unconvinced you feel reading this. That’s because I have made no effort at all to build rapport with you, so you likely feel like I’m preaching at you like half the internet does and couldn’t care less. Hell, I’m even boring myself at this point. You are obviously at liberty to find HBs outputs obnoxious ( he does claim to be able to ‘hear’ a network switch after all’, but if you want him to stop what he’s doing, you probably have to begin by being nice to him.

 

[voodooless]

2) Railing against misleading reviewers achieves absolutely nothing that anyone rational cares about. One has to be utterly unaware of the scientific literature on human behaviour to believe that a single reviewer will change their attitude, or lose followers because of being called out about the false information in their reviews.

I don't think that is the audience. Focus should be on those who are as of yet undecided, those that still have little knowledge and want to actually figure things out for themselves and know the internet is an evil place . Those people tend to also find ASR It seems be do pretty well on google nowadays, and for every topic we make that links to one of those loons, it will do even better. That means people interested will find it, and will have a better chance to turn away from "the dark side" . So while you might not let him loose a lot of followers, you can actually let him gain a little less.

You are obviously at liberty to find HBs outputs obnoxious ( he does claim to be able to ‘hear’ a network switch after all’, but if you want him to stop what he’s doing, you probably have to begin by being nice to him.

I'm all for being nice to people, but why would he ever stop either way? You already pointed out that nothing we do will make him lose any followers and therefore money.

 

[firedog]

Hans says, "why would Mola Mola bring out a 6K Euro" NCore amp if you can DIY one for about 10 % of that?
Lots of reasons for that, some of which have zero to do with SQ.
But the Mola Mola has a more advanced NCore board, and apparently a better input board and PS. It also has a VERY expensive case. I read that the commercial debut of Mola Mola was delayed for 2 years b/c they couldn't get the manufacturing of the fancy case done properly without defects. That costs BIG bucks.

So beyond looks is the Mola Mola better? Probably slightly. Can most people hear the difference? Probably not (other than the power).
Why would you buy it? a) the money isn't a big deal for you; b) you care a lot about looks; c) you want the power; d) you get dealer and company support; e) you just like knowing that you have the best and something that is basically state of the art.

 

[Frank Dernie]

It also has a VERY expensive case. I read that the commercial debut of Mola Mola was delayed for 2 years b/c they couldn't get the manufacturing of the fancy case done properly without defects. That costs BIG bucks.

I am a sucker for a nice case, and having costed a Goldmund Preamp case around 20 years ago (about £7,000, it could be cheaper to machine from solid nowadays) realise that the bulk of the price of "high-end" brands is the quality of the case.
Personally I accept that OTOH the one thing which has always put me off the Mola-Mola kit is the case styling, I hate it, so it cuts both ways.

 

[Purité Audio]

Hans says, "why would Mola Mola bring out a 6K Euro" NCore amp if you can DIY one for about 10 % of that?
Lots of reasons for that, some of which have zero to do with SQ.
But the Mola Mola has a more advanced NCore board, and apparently a better input board and PS. It also has a VERY expensive case. I read that the commercial debut of Mola Mola was delayed for 2 years b/c they couldn't get the manufacturing of the fancy case done properly without defects. That costs BIG bucks.

So beyond looks is the Mola Mola better? Probably slightly. Can most people hear the difference? Probably not (other than the power).
Why would you buy it? a) the money isn't a big deal for you; b) you care a lot about looks; c) you want the power; d) you get dealer and company support; e) you just like knowing that you have the best and something that is basically state of the art.

I have had both March Audio/Mola no difference in Sq whatsoever.
Keith

 

[voodooless]

I am a sucker for a nice case

I stuck my good old Hypex UcD400 in a very nice solid aluminium case from the now defunct company Hexateq with custom milled holes for all connectors. It looks very refined and high-end with rounded corners and 10mm think allround. And it cost quite a bit more than a standard case, but in the end I would not do it again. Money could be better spend on other things. I did go all in though.. dual mono, massive 400VA transformers, slit foil caps, modified power supplies to the UcD pre and driver stages.. even was so crazy to have full silver wire to the speakons (I did get it for cheap luckily). It was about the most you could do at the time (this was way pre-ncore). It was definitely a fun and satisfying build and looks fantastic, but most of it totally unnecessary ofcourse. But still use it every day and in all these years, never failed me once.

 

[Phorize]

I don't think that is the audience. Focus should be on those who are as of yet undecided, those that still have little knowledge and want to actually figure things out for themselves and know the internet is an evil place . Those people tend to also find ASR It seems be do pretty well on google nowadays, and for every topic we make that links to one of those loons, it will do even better. That means people interested will find it, and will have a better chance to turn away from "the dark side" . So while you might not let him loose a lot of followers, you can actually let him gain a little less.



I'm all for being nice to people, but why would he ever stop either way? You already pointed out that nothing we do will make him lose any followers and therefore money.

We probably agree on this really. I just think that the users prefer to see helpful threads on component performance rather than debunking of myths being spread by people like HB, I’ll admit that I personally have to resist the urge to go into his YouTube comments and demand double blind tests and his latest audiogram, but that’s because I’m a pedant and probably always will be

 

[voodooless]

I’ll admit that I personally have to resist the urge to go into his YouTube comments and demand double blind tests and his latest audiogram, but that’s because I’m a pedant and probably always will be

As long as you demand nicely . And remember that we Dutchies are fairly direct and can take a fair bit of verbal beating

 

[Snarfie]

We probably agree on this really. I just think that the users prefer to see helpful threads on component performance rather than debunking of myths being spread by people like HB, I’ll admit that I personally have to resist the urge to go into his YouTube comments and demand double blind tests and his latest audiogram, but that’s because I’m a pedant and probably always will be

I had the same urge for 5 secondes but realise it could end up in an endless discussion Could spent my time way better listening to music for instance.