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Dutch & Dutch 8Cs

nuport

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I have a pair of these on the way, super excited! For those of you who own them I have a question: I would like to incorporate these into both a 2 channel and home theater setup. Given the mediocrity of the AVRS/prepros out there, what I wanted to see if I could do is run 2 channel stereo via a MiniDSP SHD Studio (AES output), and then have a prepro for home theater(analog out). If I run 110ohm cable from both units into an XLR switcher, and run 110ohm cable to the speakers, can I simply change the input type in lanspeaker? Are you able to run a different default filter for both input types? So if I switch inputs it will know which filters to run?
 

phoenixdogfan

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I have a pair of these on the way, super excited! For those of you who own them I have a question: I would like to incorporate these into both a 2 channel and home theater setup. Given the mediocrity of the AVRS/prepros out there, what I wanted to see if I could do is run 2 channel stereo via a MiniDSP SHD Studio (AES output), and then have a prepro for home theater(analog out). If I run 110ohm cable from both units into an XLR switcher, and run 110ohm cable to the speakers, can I simply change the input type in lanspeaker? Are you able to run a different default filter for both input types? So if I switch inputs it will know which filters to run?
Why not use a Octo DAC 8 instead. Use the MiniDsp Studio AES out into the switch, and XLR from the Octo for the L-R to the switch with the remaining channels going to amplifiers for the center, surrounds and sub. That way, you can run 7.1 channel Usb to the Octo 8 for home theater, and 2 channel AES/EBU to that same switch for high quality 2 channel stereo w subs (if subs are desired with the D & Ds).
 

nuport

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Why not use a Octo DAC 8 instead. Use the MiniDsp Studio AES out into the switch, and XLR from the Octo for the L-R to the switch with the remaining channels going to amplifiers for the center, surrounds and sub. That way, you can run 7.1 channel Usb to the Octo 8 for home theater, and 2 channel AES/EBU to that same switch for high quality 2 channel stereo w subs (if subs are desired with the D & Ds).

How would you do Dolby decoding from the Octo 8? I am trying to avoid a PC in my living room. Can a PC decode stuff like Atmos?

I don't think the Octo solves the question I had, which more specifically can you use an XLR switcher with both digital and analog inputs going into the 8C, or is there an issue with that.
 
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Emlin

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How would you do Dolby decoding from the Octo 8? I am trying to avoid a PC in my living room. Can a PC decode stuff like Atmos?

I don't think the Octo solves the question I had, which more specifically can you use an XLR switcher with both digital and analog inputs going into the 8C, or is there an issue with that.

I think that you could use the XLR switcher without problems, and yes you can switch between analog/digital in lanspeaker. But what would happen when you forgot where you were, I don't know!
 

phoenixdogfan

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How would you do Dolby decoding from the Octo 8? I am trying to avoid a PC in my living room. Can a PC decode stuff like Atmos?

I don't think the Octo solves the question I had, which more specifically can you use an XLR switcher with both digital and analog inputs going into the 8C, or is there an issue with that.
Through JRiver it can do all the legacy formats up to 7.1 for streamed material. I don't thing there would be an issue if one input was AES/EBU digital and the other input was XLR analog.
 

simple6

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A bit of an odd question - would it be possible to use a D&D 8C horizontally as a centre speaker? Would the dip in dispersion at 1.5khz break intelligibility?

8c Vertical Contour.png


(This is from napilopez's measurements) - honestly the vertical directivity is not far from the horizontal :)

Do you see any other problems with the positioning? Would it be a massive problem for the grillers on the sides?
 

Purité Audio

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The grills create the cardioid response, but they are not needed for ventilation so you could.
Keith
 

Lorenzo74

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...the difference between the two models of speaker was imperceptible...

The most noticeable difference was the 8Cs' superior bottom-octave performance, although the Kiis' low end was impressive for their size.
With Grimm, Kii, D&D, and now GGNTKT, it feels as though there is some long overdue progress in loudspeaker design.

fully agree with you except that the Kii has cardioid pattern (wavefocus) down to 50Hz therefore it reproduce more realistic bass compare to D&D since less room (front Wall) bass reinforcement.
IMHO that's might be the reason behind the impression you had.

Kii Three, evolution of what @Bruno Putzeys experimented with LS1, is designed to be augmented by BXT module, not to perform deeper but to increase dynamic range and "control vertical dispersion" (floor-ceiling reflections reduced by vertical array) so it "is" if we do the maths, the ultimate speaker.
 
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kaka89

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fully agree with you except that the Kii has cardioid pattern (wavefocus) down to 50Hz therefore it reproduce more realistic bass compare to D&D since less room (front Wall) bass reinforcement.
IMHO that's might be the reason behind the impression you had.

Kii Three, evolution of what @Bruno Putzeys experimented with LS1, is designed to be augmented by BXT module, not to perform deeper but to increase dynamic range and "control vertical dispersion" (floor-ceiling reflections reduced by vertical array) so it "is" if we do the maths, the ultimate speaker.

Room mode still dominate in below 200Hz even with cardioid pattern. Don't know how big of a different 50Hz - 100Hz cardioid would make.
 

Ilkless

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Room mode still dominate in below 200Hz even with cardioid pattern. Don't know how big of a different 50Hz - 100Hz cardioid would make.

Geddes said this in the context of Linkwitz's assertions of dipoles exciting less room modes - an important distinction is between exciting modes less (ie. the prevalence of modes is still the same but the magnitude of their excitation is different) and exciting less modes (ie. there are fundamentally less modes beings excited). I'm not sure which of the two do cardioids achieve 50-100Hz.

From 100Hz-200Hz, a case can be made for reducing SBIR in some placements close to the front wall.
 

Martijn Mensink

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@Purité Audio and @Martijn Mensink
A while back there was talk of a unit called “the box” that would sit ahead of the 8c to act as a source selector and volume controller. Is this still in the works?

Hi Andrew. We worked on a number of projects side by side for a while, but some time ago we decided to focus on just one or two projects at a time. Our number one focus at the moment is making the 8c's Roon-Ready. So "the box" is still on our development roadmap, but we're not working on it at the moment.
 

andrew

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Hi Andrew. We worked on a number of projects side by side for a while, but some time ago we decided to focus on just one or two projects at a time. Our number one focus at the moment is making the 8c's Roon-Ready. So "the box" is still on our development roadmap, but we're not working on it at the moment.

Thanks for the update. The approach and priorities make a lot of sense.
 

Pearljam5000

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I still can't believe how good they sound in this video, so they will obviously be mind blowing in real life.
Does anyone know what drivers are used in the 8C?
 
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Martijn Mensink

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I still can't believe how good they sound in this video, so they will obviously be mind blowing in real life.

We were approached only a couple of days before this event because another manufacturer had pulled out. I was intrigued by the experiment they proposed, recording the played back music in the room and having people listen in through the live stream on youtube. I was confident the 8c's would do well in this test and I happily provided them with a pair. I set up the 8c's myself and thought they sounded good in the room.

That Sunday I watched the live stream and I thought it was quite enjoyable, but I did feel the 8c was not presented in the best possible light. It seemed to me they were sticking to a preconceived narrative, starting with the least expensive speaker and then moving up in price, and up in sound quality. The Grimms are long-time Alpha Audio favorites and in this test they came out as clearly the best of the bunch. I've listened to the Grimms on multiple occasions and they are indeed fantastic speakers. Actually, they served as one of the many sources of inspiration when we designed the 8c. However, had they during the test switched back and forth between speakers more frequently, had the levels been properly matched, and had they listened blind, would the listeners still have used the same superlatives?

Before the event, Alpha Audio admitted this was an experiment and they have been very open to ideas of how to improve the concept. They're now experimenting with different microphone configurations and they agreed that next time they will make sure the levels are properly matched (the 8c's played approximately 4 dB less loud than the rest - this was fixed in post-production of the audio samples in their database). They were kind of enough to mention this in a disclaimer in the video description, but this was done only a couple of weeks after the live stream, so I think few people have seen it.

Disclaimer: For a completely fair comparison of loudspeakers, the playback level between speakers has to be matched. Otherwise, the slightly louder loudspeaker is likely to be perceived as better. In future live tests, we’ll make sure the levels are properly matched, but it’s not done perfectly in this one. The Dutch & Dutch played at a lower level than the others, the Grimm the loudest. These level differences have been fixed in post-production, but not in this video. Therefore, for the most accurate listening comparison, please listen to the files hosted in the Alpha Audio Sample Database. You can check the database via https://alpha-audio.net or https://www.alpha-audio.nlHearing is believing!

So, if you wish to do a proper comparison of the recordings, download the samples from the database, rather than comparing them on Youtube.

I listened to all three speakers in the room briefly. Of course, making a recording and playing that back over headphones can only give a very crude approximation of the real thing, but I have to say I was surprised by how well the tonal character holds. At the very least you can hear the differences in timbre between speakers. This approach lets prospective buyers get a basic idea of the character of different speakers. It's imperfect, but I think it's very useful nonetheless. I hope Alpha Audio keeps improving their method of recording and of presenting the recordings to their listeners. Perhaps an ABX comparator would be an interesting addition to their sample database?

As most people here know, listening tests are difficult to do well. Inspired by the stream, one of our dealers (Pura Audio) wrote a blog about listening tests: https://pura-audio.nl/en/2020/11/09...er-tests-how-do-you-get-the-most-out-of-them/

Does anyone know what drivers are used in the 8C?

Actually, I do! The tweeter and mid are OEM versions of Seas Prestige, the woofers are OEM Wavecor.
 

richard12511

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We were approached only a couple of days before this event because another manufacturer had pulled out. I was intrigued by the experiment they proposed, recording the played back music in the room and having people listen in through the live stream on youtube. I was confident the 8c's would do well in this test and I happily provided them with a pair. I set up the 8c's myself and thought they sounded good in the room.

That Sunday I watched the live stream and I thought it was quite enjoyable, but I did feel the 8c was not presented in the best possible light. It seemed to me they were sticking to a preconceived narrative, starting with the least expensive speaker and then moving up in price, and up in sound quality. The Grimms are long-time Alpha Audio favorites and in this test they came out as clearly the best of the bunch. I've listened to the Grimms on multiple occasions and they are indeed fantastic speakers. Actually, they served as one of the many sources of inspiration when we designed the 8c. However, had they during the test switched back and forth between speakers more frequently, had the levels been properly matched, and had they listened blind, would the listeners still have used the same superlatives?

Before the event, Alpha Audio admitted this was an experiment and they have been very open to ideas of how to improve the concept. They're now experimenting with different microphone configurations and they agreed that next time they will make sure the levels are properly matched (the 8c's played approximately 4 dB less loud than the rest - this was fixed in post-production of the audio samples in their database). They were kind of enough to mention this in a disclaimer in the video description, but this was done only a couple of weeks after the live stream, so I think few people have seen it.



So, if you wish to do a proper comparison of the recordings, download the samples from the database, rather than comparing them on Youtube.

I listened to all three speakers in the room briefly. Of course, making a recording and playing that back over headphones can only give a very crude approximation of the real thing, but I have to say I was surprised by how well the tonal character holds. At the very least you can hear the differences in timbre between speakers. This approach lets prospective buyers get a basic idea of the character of different speakers. It's imperfect, but I think it's very useful nonetheless. I hope Alpha Audio keeps improving their method of recording and of presenting the recordings to their listeners. Perhaps an ABX comparator would be an interesting addition to their sample database?

As most people here know, listening tests are difficult to do well. Inspired by the stream, one of our dealers (Pura Audio) wrote a blog about listening tests: https://pura-audio.nl/en/2020/11/09...er-tests-how-do-you-get-the-most-out-of-them/



Actually, I do! The tweeter and mid are OEM versions of Seas Prestige, the woofers are OEM Wavecor.

Relatively positive the Grimms would still have won, even if the test were properly level matched. My guess is that the two speakers are likely similar enough(tonally) that the price bias in favor of the Grimms would win the day. Only way I see the 8C winning a public shootout like that is if the speakers were just presented as A, B, C, with no mention of price. Also, the participants themselves would need to be blind, so that their expectation bias couldn't influence the crowd.

I must say, though. The audio comparison over youtube thing is something I'm very skeptical of. The next blind listening test I host, I'll likely record and upload the audio somewhere, just out of curiosity to see how closely the blind internet results track with the in person results :).

*Edit: also, do you have links to the actual audio clips on their site. I wasn't able to find the shootout audio from the home site.
 

Purité Audio

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Owning all three, with the LS1s and 8c’s next to each other I can categorically say that the conclusions of that video were a bit silly.
Keith
 

Lorenzo74

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Owning all three, with the LS1s and 8c’s next to each other I can categorically say that the conclusions of that video were a bit silly.
Keith
I know you listen to the kii three as well.
among those, according to you which is the less room dependent?
Being active it’s academic having perfect on axis response, the point is how much the speaker couple with our listening space.
best
L.
 

richard12511

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Owning all three, with the LS1s and 8c’s next to each other I can categorically say that the conclusions of that video were a bit silly.
Keith

Convictions are much stronger when people know the price of what they’re listening to.

Having heard both, how would you say they compare? I’ve personally never heard anything from Grimm, but I want to.
 
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