Dutch & Dutch 8Cs

[andreasmaaan]

That's the bit I'm trying to understand, from the measurements we have they both are flat on axis in a chamber, and both have similar polar maps, but the 8c's slope down naturally at the listening position but the Kii's do not, in Mitch's room at least. Based on the polar maps I would have guessed it's the Kii that would have sloped down, not the D&D.

Based on the measurements we have so far, you’re right. But it’s hard to guess at these questions without the 360 deg horizontal polars and the vertical polars I think.

 

[Purité Audio]

For the 8c, is the recommended 40 cm distance from the front wall minimum or maximum? Given the depth of these speakers (380 mm) and my room, I will need them placed as close to the wall as possible - probably 15 cm - to even consider these speakers.

That would be fine 10cm is the minimum and you need that for the mains plug, just adjust rear and side distances via the app.
Keith

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

I am confused also by the "slope down" reference. Perhaps Mitchco should clarify it. If a speaker is flat on-axis , how does it "slope down"?

It can be regular on axis with a slope down IOW not much variations along a given slope but flat is not tilted. I can have a shelf at a given frequency and the rest remains "flat" but ... flat is just that .... flat

 

[mitchco]

That's the bit I'm trying to understand, from the measurements we have they both are flat on axis in a chamber, and both have similar polar maps, but the 8c's slope down naturally at the listening position but the Kii's do not, in Mitch's room at least. Based on the polar maps I would have guessed it's the Kii that would have sloped down, not the D&D.

I believe the issue is that both manufacturers are using different anechoic measurement approaches, as alluded to in posts 646 and 650. Based on the research, one of them is incorrect...

 

[Blumlein 88]

I think you are actually agreeing with me despite your first sentence!

The idea of the frequency response target is backwards. The observation that a neutral speaker gives the sloping response in a dumb (in the British sense of the word) FFT in a typical room derives from simple, understandable physics. But by understanding where the curve comes from, rather than just making the observation, it can be predicted that the neutral speaker would produce a different curve in a different room. Also, a more, or less, directional speaker (which still counts as neutral) would produce a different curve.

So, even if we don't stray into non-neutral speaker territory, it would be a mistake to use any curve whatsoever as a target for adjusting the EQ of a neutral speaker. It shouldn't be adjusted at all, whatever the in-room measurements.

In this particular case it is observed that "I didn't have to make any adjustments to meet the target curve", but this is just an indication that the room was not far off 'typical', and the speaker is neutral and happens to have similar directivity to the one used when measuring the special curve. It is a backwards way of establishing a speaker's neutrality - which would be better established without reference to any in-room curve at all.

Yes I think we agree. But while I agree shooting for an in room slope is backwards, for room correction what other choice do you have? If we know the speaker is made to be flat and directivity is okay we don't need to do anything. But most speakers made aren't made to those criteria. At the room correcting end you are always forced to work backwards. So correcting a non-flat speaker from the back end a target curve isn't crazy to me. You don't have the option of going to the local anechoic chamber. So you measure in room and shoot for that target curve.

It is true there isn't one curve fits all. But doing the in room measurements most rooms would show a neutral speaker to have some slope. Adjusting a non-neutral speaker to a sloped curve would be a step generally in the right direction even if not perfect. Much room correction software lets you specify the slope, or choose among several ranges of steepness or even fully draw the curve as you see fit. I've found correcting to the middle of the road curves and doing some listening lets you pick one that seems to work well with a given room. Now when we can start getting flat neutral speakers with good directivity control for a given room we won't need all that.

I even wonder if the directivity is a lower level issue. Using Tact correction I've cross mixed different speakers having one in each channel. Without correction you don't get a good coherent soundstage or proper imaging though you get some semblence of stereo. Even once you've matched general loudness levels. After letting the Tact correct for each speaker, you get a nice coherent soundstage, good imaging and wouldn't think anything remiss in what you hear. With some odder pairings you'll get a few artifacts in a few recordings you might eventually hear from the mismatch, but it is much harder and than I would have expected. This has included pairing a floor standing box speaker on one side and a panel ESL on the other. Obviously very different directivities involved, but they weren't very noticeable once both were corrected for the same target curve.

 

[kaka89]

I got to listen to 8c for a few minutes and a few songs today. The 8c was a newly setup so probably not tuned. The listening room in medium size, about 20'x10', and 8c was placed by the long wall. I was sitting about 6' away from the speakers.

While I think the sound signature was ok to my taste, I found the 8c is overpowered in the demo room, there is no boom but too much energy/pressure. I felt uncomfortable and tiring very quickly. I don't think it was the volume, it just felt like I was sitting too close to the speaker.

8c was on the top of my short list, but now I am not sure because my living room is much smaller than the demo one. My living room is about 15' x 9', I have to sit about 5' away from the speaker. 8c might be too big for my room, too bad now I have to look for another speaker.

(Tried Amphion with a Japanese amp, it was way too thin to my taste, perhaps it was a bad match. I really want a speaker that can sit close to wall and fit my room.)

 

[andreasmaaan]

(Tried Amphion with a Japanese amp, it was way too thin to my taste, perhaps it was a bad match. I really want a speaker that can sit close to wall and fit my room.)

How close to the wall does it need to sit?

 

[pirad]

Try Larsen 6. Should be good for your room and plays best pushed to the wall.

 

[Purité Audio]

I sit around six feet away from my 8Cs in one of the room’s here, I have never felt I was too close, their bass extension can interact with the room but you can cure those with the built in tone and EQ filters.
Pressure I don’t really understand what you mean, were they perhaps just playing too loudly?
Keith

 

[Strictly Stereo]

I got to listen to 8c for a few minutes and a few songs today. The 8c was a newly setup so probably not tuned. The listening room in medium size, about 20'x10', and 8c was placed by the long wall. I was sitting about 6' away from the speakers.

While I think the sound signature was ok to my taste, I found the 8c is overpowered in the demo room, there is no boom but too much energy/pressure. I felt uncomfortable and tiring very quickly. I don't think it was the volume, it just felt like I was sitting too close to the speaker.

8c was on the top of my short list, but now I am not sure because my living room is much smaller than the demo one. My living room is about 15' x 9', I have to sit about 5' away from the speaker. 8c might be too big for my room, too bad now I have to look for another speaker.

(Tried Amphion with a Japanese amp, it was way too thin to my taste, perhaps it was a bad match. I really want a speaker that can sit close to wall and fit my room.)

Before you cross the 8c off your list, I would encourage you to try a properly configured and EQd pair in your own room. Whereabouts are you based? I may be able to help.

Which Amphion models did you try? They work well with Hegel amplifiers.

 

[fredoamigo]

if there is indeed a predominant quality on the 8c, it is that they are not at all tiring on long listening sessions...
for listening to them for 5 hours non-stop certainly well beyond 85 db (I like to listen at a realistic volume) I remember being very pleasantly surprised on that side.
a problem of integration with these speakers? if they are correctly installed with the dsp (a children's playground) and positioned it is not possible. 1.80 m (6" ) still seems a little too close to me, even if it's not a near field listening.

 

[dc655321]

Not sure about the choice of music , but this is a very cool demo -

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1085613504942124

 

[Purité Audio]

That is cool, where did you find that?
Keith

 

[Sal1950]

Not sure about the choice of music , but this is a very cool demo -

That's an amazing demo!
Keith could you do a similar to back it up?

 

[graz_lag]

Not sure about the choice of music , but this is a very cool demo -

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1085613504942124

Not sure about the aquaplaning ...

Driving experiences are often affected by harmful car over-steering or under-steering reactions. Minimizing those reactions improves driving quality. That's way the "two-faced" car under-steers on the rear about as it over-steers on the front - feel fewer reactions, more of the driving enjoyment.
Read more on http://news.kuwaittimes.net/website/indonesian-authorities-run-two-faced-car-off-road/

 

[andrew]

I got to listen to 8c for a few minutes and a few songs today. The 8c was a newly setup so probably not tuned. The listening room in medium size, about 20'x10', and 8c was placed by the long wall. I was sitting about 6' away from the speakers.

While I think the sound signature was ok to my taste, I found the 8c is overpowered in the demo room, there is no boom but too much energy/pressure. I felt uncomfortable and tiring very quickly. I don't think it was the volume, it just felt like I was sitting too close to the speaker.

8c was on the top of my short list, but now I am not sure because my living room is much smaller than the demo one. My living room is about 15' x 9', I have to sit about 5' away from the speaker. 8c might be too big for my room, too bad now I have to look for another speaker.

(Tried Amphion with a Japanese amp, it was way too thin to my taste, perhaps it was a bad match. I really want a speaker that can sit close to wall and fit my room.)

You hear what you hear but I'd suggest revisiting the 8c with a pair that has been dialled into the room via tweaking toe-in and on-board EQ. Best of luck

 

[kaka89]

Thank you for everyone's feedback, yes I will demo again in the future.
Speakers in my home has to sit about 30cm away from the wall.

The Amphion model I listened was Argon 1, smallest shelf speaker on their line, in a 300ft's treated room. Probably too small for the room and therefore sound thin, but it was the only model they have.

 

[Sal1950]

Just looking at Dec. Stereophile Product of the Year listings.
Got to admit I was quite surprised that the 8Cs didn't even get a honorable mention.
With all the hub-bub over them and the Kii 3s this year I thought something might get said.
I looked back at the 2017 awards and found the Kii's did get a honorable mention but that was it.
I think it's gonna be a uphill battle for the integrated system speakers.
Either that or they pissed off someone at AV Tech

 

[Blumlein 88]

Just looking at Dec. Stereophile Product of the Year listings.
Got to admit I was quite surprised that the 8Cs didn't even get a honorable mention.
With all the hub-bub over them and the Kii 3s this year I thought something might get said.
I looked back at the 2017 awards and found the Kii's did get a honorable mention but that was it.
I think it's gonna be a uphill battle for the integrated system speakers.
Either that or they pissed off someone at AV Tech

Are you out of your mind? Integrated systems, means no source, preamp, power amp, speaker. Means no USB cable, interconnects, and no speaker cable. You're killing the highest possible profit centers. Not to mention the grounding and power conditioning boxes that are being cut out using integrated systems. The industry couldn't afford it.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Just looking at Dec. Stereophile Product of the Year listings.
Got to admit I was quite surprised that the 8Cs didn't even get a honorable mention.

The rules for the POTY listings restrict the selections to products we've actually reviewed and we never reviewed the 8Cs. Did we?