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Dutch & Dutch 8Cs

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Relying on web app for all operations is a horrible idea, especially when 8c don't even have WIFI support.

- Where my speakers are placed doesn't have LAN port, my home relies on Wifi connection. I know I can get a router to bridge the network, but this means more boxes...
- And I have to bookmark the web app in everyone's phone and teach everyone how to use it...

I think KEF LS50W does these things in a much user-friendly way, as a customer I am expecting the same from these $10k speakers. But I also know the audio industry is horrible at software...

(Integrating with AllPlay platform is a good and easy start https://www.qualcomm.com/products/allplay)

There is a native app in the pipeline, I believe. Would that help?

You can side-step the Ethernet inputs in day-to-day by using an external streamer or other digital source which has volume control, or an external analogue preamplifier. I normally tote an Auralic Aries Mini around with me for home demos. We sell a stand alongside the 8c which can be made up with a shelf on one side to support the Aries Mini or another similar device. Alternatively, you can add WiFi to the 8c with a tiny and inexpensive wireless bridge.

Looking at the products which integrate Qualcomm AllPlay today, they seem to be aiming at a different end of the market. Roon integration seems like a much better fit, in my view.
 

andrew

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It is easy to switch between inputs using the web app. The same web app provides access to all of the other settings and integration options.
I don't, to be honest, see the web app as a solution except for the case of a sole, enthusiast, listener. If it was just me, with Roon, then it'd be a fine solution made better with a native app. Our situation, though, sees the entire family using and enjoying the speakers which have to support a wide range of A/V sources as well as streaming. To this end, we're using a mini-DSP DDRC-22D as a digital pre-amp that allows for volume and input to be controlled by a simple universal remote programmed with activities such as "listen to music" or "watch Apple TV". (The A/V sources go direct to TV with optical output sent to the mini-DSP and Auralic Aries is connected direct to mini-DSP as a Roon end-point.) All this is simple enough for family use with limited support. I'd love to ditch the music streamer, and control volume in the 8c, but I don't see this as being practical via the web-app - it would have to be via a universal remote control or integrated into a smartphone app that support other A/V equipment to win over the living room.

P.S. The idea of the D&D control box is a solution to this dilemma but has it's own issues. Support for remote controlled volume and input switching, as well as sample rate conversion, are the base requirements for a ticket to play. How, though, does it differentiate against pre-amp options whether these be digital (not many) or analogue (DAC/pre or AV Pre-Pro)? I'd imagine that one advantage would be that it'd be able to control the 8c volume natively rather than applying digital volume control earlier in the chain or requiring a A/D from an analogue pre-amp - but we've heard that the latter isn't a problem. So, whilst I'm in the market, it'd be good to understand the thinking on this box.
 
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I don't, to be honest, see the web app as a solution except for the case of a sole, enthusiast, listener. If it was just me, with Roon, then it'd be a fine solution made better with a native app. Our situation, though, sees the entire family using and enjoying the speakers which have to support a wide range of A/V sources as well as streaming. To this end, we're using a mini-DSP DDRC-22D as a digital pre-amp that allows for volume and input to be controlled by a simple universal remote programmed with activities such as "listen to music" or "watch Apple TV". (The A/V sources go direct to TV with optical output sent to the mini-DSP and Auralic Aries is connected direct to mini-DSP as a Roon end-point.) All this is simple enough for family use with limited support. I'd love to ditch the music streamer, and control volume in the 8c, but I don't see this as being practical via the web-app - it would have to be via a universal remote control or integrated into a smartphone app that support other A/V equipment to win over the living room.

P.S. The idea of the D&D control box is a solution to this dilemma but has it's own issues. Support for remote controlled volume and input switching, as well as sample rate conversion, are the base requirements for a ticket to play. How, though, does it differentiate against pre-amp options whether these be digital (not many) or analogue (DAC/pre or AV Pre-Pro)? I'd imagine that one advantage would be that it'd be able to control the 8c volume natively rather than applying digital volume control earlier in the chain or requiring a A/D from an analogue pre-amp - but we've heard that the latter isn't a problem. So, whilst I'm in the market, it'd be good to understand the thinking on this box.

If all you needed was Roon, you could control the volume from within Roon itself. This will remotely control the volume inside the 8c. The web app would then only be required for changing boundary settings, EQ filters etc. I do take your point though. It would be great to have more inputs and more immediate control over input switching and volume. There are lots of third party options which can provide these features, but I would love to see a matching Dutch & Dutch breakout box.

Regarding your question about how a Dutch & Dutch breakout box could differentiate itself from third party boxes, one key difference might be that the Dutch & Dutch box would not duplicate functionality which is already built into the speakers. Instead, it would provide more direct physical controls for the built-in features.
 

tyleroz

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The G2 accept ethernet / digital input, and there is analogue output only.
I am ordering a dCS network bridge, with Ethernet in, AES digital out to 8C, then I can streaming through the network bridge, using the dCS app / Roon on a pad/mobile phone to control the vol.
If 8C is Roon ready and able to accept Ethernet digital input, we can then don't need the streaming device, just feed the digital signal to 8C via Ethernet, and use Roon to control the streaming, source from NAS/TIDAL etc.
This is my wish.
Do you think dutch 8c can accept the dual AES from network bridge or only a single AES output can be used?
 
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Dialectic

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Do you think dutch 8c can accept the dual AES from network bridge or only a single AES output can be used?

Yes, you can send a separate stereo AES signal to each 8C and select the right or left channel for each speaker from the 8Cs' app.
 
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Dialectic

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The G2 accept ethernet / digital input, and there is analogue output only.
I am ordering a dCS network bridge, with Ethernet in, AES digital out to 8C, then I can streaming through the network bridge, using the dCS app / Roon on a pad/mobile phone to control the vol.
If 8C is Roon ready and able to accept Ethernet digital input, we can then don't need the streaming device, just feed the digital signal to 8C via Ethernet, and use Roon to control the streaming, source from NAS/TIDAL etc.
This is my wish.

I'm not sure the expenditure on the DCS network bridge is worth it, as the 8Cs will run DSP on--and probably de-jitter--all digital signals sent to them.
 

tyleroz

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Yes, you can send a separate stereo AES signal to each 8C and select the right or left channel for each speaker from the 8Cs' app.
I was asking as I am not sure what it means by “each outputs PCM at up to 24 bit 192kS/s or DSD/64 in DoP format. Used as a Dual AES pair, the interface outputs PCM at up to 384kS/s, DSD/64 & DSD/128 in DoP format.” from the spec.

You are right not sure whether it is worth the price... I am thinking maybe trying mutec mc3+ usb as a conversion box and dejitter though.
 
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Dialectic

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I was asking as I am not sure what it means by “each outputs PCM at up to 24 bit 192kS/s or DSD/64 in DoP format. Used as a Dual AES pair, the interface outputs PCM at up to 384kS/s, DSD/64 & DSD/128 in DoP format.” from the spec.

You are right not sure whether it is worth the price... I am thinking maybe trying mutec mc3+ usb as a conversion box and dejitter though.

Ok, my mistake, I don't know what dual AES is. It sounds like it carries an unnecessary amount of bandwidth for audio. The 8Cs accept up to 96K only via AES.
 

tyleroz

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Ok, my mistake, I don't know what dual AES is. It sounds like it carries an unnecessary amount of bandwidth for audio. The 8Cs accept up to 96K only via AES.
no worries mate. Just want to see whether such dual AES can be utilised by 8c. I finally got the 8c after a long wait and have been looking at how to make it even better.
 

tyleroz

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It depends on the player, but most of them make it rather difficult to get the SACD content out of the player in a digital form. The simplest option would be to just run analogue out over balanced XLR to each speaker.
That’s what I have been doing. But I am looking for how to best connect the speakers in a all digital way to avoid D->A->D. I thought about the dcs network bridge but really wonder whether it is worth the cost.
 
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That’s what I have been doing. But I am looking for how to best connect the speakers in a all digital way to avoid D->A->D. I thought about the dcs network bridge but really wonder whether it is worth the cost.

Which make and model of SACD player do you have? I think the challenging bit will be to get the unmolested DSD content out of the player in a digital form. Once you have that it can easily be converted to a format that the 8c can work with. Most players will output the CD layer digitally or possibly a downsampled/PCM converted version of the DSD layer. It is easy to pass this to the 8c, but getting unmolested, unencrypted DSD out is not normally an option. Some will output the SACD content it via HDMI, but I am pretty sure that this is encrypted.

I would be inclined to take the analogue output from the player and rely on the converters inside the 8c. The nagging seed of doubt in the back of your mind will shrink and eventually disappear altogether as you play more music.
 
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tyleroz

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I don’t really care about DSD actually, just happened to have the sacd player on hand and most of my collections are CD & they are ripped already. So what bugs me now is how to connect the Mac mini acting as roon server to the speakers is the best. Roon support is not out yet and even it is I am still wonder whether any “reclocker or dejitter” will further improve the sound or not.

The speakers are really great and would like to utilise it as much as possible.
 

tyleroz

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Also I remember someone is using BACCH with it. It is really a heavy investment but I can’t help to think how it can further improve the sound. There is no dealer or demo available here and I can’t justify “blind buy” it to try at all.
 
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Dialectic

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Also I remember someone is using BACCH with it. It is really a heavy investment but I can’t help to think how it can further improve the sound. There is no dealer or demo available here and I can’t justify “blind buy” it to try at all.

I'm using BACCH, and yes, it works and totally changes the sound of the 8Cs, or that of any other speakers.
 

tyleroz

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I'm using BACCH, and yes, it works and totally changes the sound of the 8Cs, or that of any other speakers.

Are you using Mac version or hardware version? I know very difficult to “justify” but do you think it is worth it? Already the 8c sound amazing and can’t help to think how to improve it even better.
 

tyleroz

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I'm using BACCH, and yes, it works and totally changes the sound of the 8Cs, or that of any other speakers.
Oh sorry I just realised you wrote a long piece for your BACCH experience. Will read through the thread and thanks for writing it.
 
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