Dutch & Dutch 8c Review

[richard12511]

The Kiis are super convenient, now with bluetooth and PEQ , when D&D release their own version of the Kii ‘control’ that will be a really useful addition as well as the other thing we don’t talk about!
If I had to choose a favourite it would be Martijn’s.
Keith

Thanks!

I was actually talking about the D&D vs the Grimm. Ignoring price, which do you prefer, and why?

 

[simple6]

While we are on the subject of Genelec, if anyone here happens to know someone I could contact about potentially acquiring a loaner set of the 8351B (or anything else you guys want to see) for review then I would be happy to reach out and inquire myself. That might be more helpful than sending an email to the general customer service channels where I am likely to be ignored.


Or, if you guys happen to have an "in" with Sweetwater or B&H that would be great. I have some ideas there that might be beneficial to us all.

I may have read that @Spocko was planning on sending one to Amir for testing? Maybe he can give us an update cause many people are eager to see measurements on this

 

[Da cynics]

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-audiophile-journey.14547/page-20#post-459172

I don't know objectively what it is, but the Kii's sound "dryer" than the 8c's to my ears.

Kii actually has a little bit hot top end

Thoughts I saw in gearslutz
The impression my acquaintance gave me.

But same tweeter Grimm...
the magic of wide baffle...?

 

[HammerSandwich]

That‘s for the crossover for the drivers, the finished speaker should not have a dip, no?

Flat axial response or flat power response, your choice.

I keep saying that physics hates loudspeaker designers, and everything I learn about speakers reinforces the thought!

 

[dc655321]

Flat axial response or flat power response, your choice.

I keep saying that physics hates loudspeaker designers, and everything I learn about speakers reinforces the thought!

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the physics, but...

Can one not have both (flat axial and flat power response) with coaxial drivers? Or even approximately coaxial?

 

[frangle]

Is there no other way to control volume on the 8c than using an app? My use case is with a TV for movies and TV, and well as with Tidal or similar streaming service. I would be curious as to how @hardisj set it up, as well as anybody else who has experience in a family room. It doesn't seem like it should be hard to have a remote-like device to control volume in 2021.

As I think D&D have acknowledged, the control approach has been "minimally viable" to allow them to get a very capable loudspeaker to market. For me the volume is less of an issue than power / standby. Normally volume will be controlled in the source equipment - TV, streamer, etc. This is what I do, but means I need a browser page permanently open just to turn them on and off (not a problem if you are content to have your amps permanently on). My subs have an auto-standby, these don't.
I use home automation software and would like a protocol published so I can just send an HTTP command to turn on/off (and mute), then I can use the same browser page for this and lights, heating, Sonos, TV and home theater control, etc - but maybe that's just me. Also Harmony...

 

[Spocko]

I may have read that @Spocko was planning on sending one to Amir for testing? Maybe he can give us an update cause many people are eager to see measurements on this

That is correct @hardisj , Amir currently has my 8351B for testing as we speak (I've also sent him my 8330A and 8320A) so I assume that you would not need it tested if Amir's doing it?
Also, I've sent him the GLM kit so he can, at his option, see what it does to these speakers

 

[HammerSandwich]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the physics, but...

Can one not have both (flat axial and flat power response) with coaxial drivers? Or even approximately coaxial?

That's the right question. Thank you! It's always good to reconsider stuff I've "known" for decades, especially with modern coaxials, software, & DSP added in.

You're correct about a pair of truly coincident drivers, in the exact same location & summing with total acoustic coherency. IOW, we could make a theoretical loudspeaker theoretically perfect. (Please note that I assume an LR crossover, as my original comment did. A Butterworth, for example, changes the factors. I feel something like that would be more challenging to flatten both on- & off-axis.)

When the drivers are coaxial but different distances, it starts to fall apart. Delay can be correct on only one axis, because the distances change with the angle. It's simply like lobing between discrete drivers in that regard. As usual, the lower your XO point, the smaller the effect of misalignment.

A Uni-Q or similar might be close enough, particularly with DSP. Probably close enough to make any ripple a minor factor in the overall results. A coaxial compression driver sounds like another strong candidate, and I'd bet that a Synergy horn shows better behavior than drivers on a baffle.

TLDR: The 8C & Grimm should show a small dip in their power responses. This is an acoustic issue. Future loudspeakers might improve this a bit.

 

[ctrl]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the physics, but...
Can one not have both (flat axial and flat power response) with coaxial drivers? Or even approximately coaxial?

Flat listening window and sound power response is, with a few tricks in baffle design, doable with today's coaxial drivers - for a wide frequency range.

If the coaxial system shows the best possible CD behavior, then pretty much all curves run parallel. Whether this can fully convince sound wise, remains to be seen.

With flat axial response it might be very difficult, because the transition from the tweeter to the woofer cone and the woofer cone itself cannot be designed as freely as, for example, a waveguide or horn, so the axial frequency response always "suffers" somewhat.

 

[richard12511]

Very interesting! Then we've listened to the LS1 in the same room. I have heard both the Kiis and the 8Cs in three different rooms (not that one), but that's the only place I've heard the LS1. Still, assuming these subjective impressions are not all about bias and do tell us something: This is part of the reason why I don't think audio science or preference formulas is at the stage yet where it can easily predict what kind of speakers people like. The 8Cs and the Kiis should in theory be superior to the Grimms, according to the Toole/Harman loudspeaker school, but it seems some people don't perceive it that way. Why? I have no idea.

But it may also be that bias indeed plays a role. The Grimms are more expensive, and at least to my eyes they look more classy and sophisticated than the 8Cs and the Kiis. So it's difficult to say whether one would indeed perceive a real difference under blind and controlled conditions.

Yeah I love the look of the Grimms. It's difficult for the brain to ignore the fact that it's listening to a $35,000 speaker though, for sure.

My goal is to find some place that has all three(Kii, D&D, Grimm) and bring my ABX comparator to help me really pick the one I like best under blind conditions.

 

[whazzup]

Is there any advantage of cardioid design when speakers are far from all walls?

Was this answered so far? Also curious to hear what cardioid can and cannot do.

 

[Absolute]

Very interesting! Then we've listened to the LS1 in the same room. I have heard both the Kiis and the 8Cs in three different rooms (not that one), but that's the only place I've heard the LS1. Still, assuming these subjective impressions are not all about bias and do tell us something: This is part of the reason why I don't think audio science or preference formulas is at the stage yet where it can easily predict what kind of speakers people like. The 8Cs and the Kiis should in theory be superior to the Grimms, according to the Toole/Harman loudspeaker school, but it seems some people don't perceive it that way. Why? I have no idea.

But it may also be that bias indeed plays a role. The Grimms are more expensive, and at least to my eyes they look more classy and sophisticated than the 8Cs and the Kiis. So it's difficult to say whether one would indeed perceive a real difference under blind and controlled conditions.

We shouldn't exclude bias of course, but as those Kiis in the comparison were mine I would think I would be biased the other way.

Interestingly enough I was listening to the Grimm, Kii Three and some Dynaudio Contour (30 or 60) that same day with a friend of mine. We both hated the Dynaudio - probably due to room issues in another shop where we auditioned Dynaudio - but while I preferred the more sweet and relaxed nature of Grimm he vastly preferred Kii because he felt they had more snap and sting and life with his preferred music genres, symphonic metal, metal etc. I don't listen to that.
I guess that sooner or later the tonality becomes good enough and other stuff starts to introduce themselves as a factor for perceived sound quality.
You're even more aware of the subjective importance of dispersion than I am, but that could be a factor that tipped the scale in favor of Grimm for me. I'm leaning towards distortion and dynamic capability myself as the big question marks, but as demonstrated with my friend it's likely that program material and what we focus on may be the determining factor of preference.

Once me and my friend heard Kii BXT (different year, different room) on some of that symphonic metal stuff he's into on realistic spls, we were sold. Capacity and the importance of the sub 250 hz area became so obvious that it changed how I view hifi. I wonder if the BXT would turn my preference from Grimm to Kii in a back-to-back comparison with regular music on my preferred spl levels. If so, it would lend credibility to my suspicion about dynamic capability/distortion as a possible explanation, but would reinforce my other suspicion about frequency response shaping due to floor bounce in the sub 200 hz area being more important than we assume...
In this demo we compared BXT with Kef Blade (the big one I assume) and I ended up preferring the more sedate mids/top-end of Kef overall even though the BXT just blew it completely out of the water below 250 hz. My weirdo friend was more smitten by the punchy BXT and preferred Kii slightly but recognized that Kef sounded more relaxed up top.

If I wanted to disadvantage the kii in a demo that's how I'd set them up , well away from walls in a big room.
More seriously the big advantage they bring is bring domestic room friendly, and being close to a wall(s), once you have the luxury of bigger rooms, and freedom to place them wherever their USP fades, and normal speakers with more displacement start making more sense.

Yeah, caridiode or not we shouldn't forget that the Kiis are small speakers in the grand scheme of things. There's 6 drivers in a small box with no internal damping heated up by 6 amplifiers with no active cooling. It will reach its limits in a big room at loud volumes.

The set-up actually ended up with the speakers placed very wide with extreme toe-in, like Grimm recommends. I'm a sucker for minimal room interaction, it seems.

 

[Purité Audio]

Yeah I love the look of the Grimms. It's difficult for the brain to ignore the fact that it's listening to a $35,000 speaker though, for sure.

My goal is to find some place that has all three(Kii, D&D, Grimm) and bring my ABX comparator to help me really pick the one I like best under blind conditions.

I have all three but it would be a major trip, I have always felt that the Kii/8C are an advance over the LS1 which was of course Bruno’s first loudspeaker design.
You might also have to look at Hedd’s main towers and there is Tom Danley’s new Hyperion on the horizon!
Keith

 

[HooStat]

I wonder whether Kii or the 8c do better off axis (i.e., pointing straight ahead instead of toed in at the listener). It may depend a lot on the room and listening distance though. I know KEF tends to do well off axis and I notice they are not toed in in the pictures above.

 

[DNM]

@hardisj I thoroughly enjoyed reading this review Erin together with the accompanying video and interview with Christian. A big thank you, it was both highly informative and educational. We are very fortunate to have a guy like you juggling a day job and young family, who's prepared to go to such lengths to procure a Klippel and spend the time performing all these measurements, especially on his drive way. Brilliant!

And having a forum like ASR where the results can be discussed sensibly and objectively with some industry luminaries joining in...great stuff. I hope contributions are flowing in to both you and Amir so we get to see more of this.

 

[DNM]

They have a ‘sub’ out, easy to add either constructively or destructively if you choose.
Keith

Still enjoying my 8c's Keith. It's been about a year now since picking them up from yours pre lock down. How time flies!

As it stands, the problem with the 'sub out' is its just a pass through, no delays or xover filters if you want to high pass the D&D's. I wonder if there's sufficient DSP horse power for these features to be added and if this type of functionality is in the pipeline? The 8c's versatility and adjustability to optimise them to your rooms acoustics is what attracted me to them. Improved bass management would be the icing on the cake.

 

[Purité Audio]

I am glad you are still enjoying them, I believe sub management is manageable I just don’t know when it will be implemented.
I completely agree proper sub management and the other thing we dare not mention would be really worthwhile additions.
Keith

 

[hardisj]

@hardisj I thoroughly enjoyed reading this review Erin together with the accompanying video and interview with Christian. A big thank you, it was both highly informative and educational. We are very fortunate to have a guy like you juggling a day job and young family, who's prepared to go to such lengths to procure a Klippel and spend the time performing all these measurements, especially on his drive way. Brilliant!

Man, that's incredibly kind of you. It really helps boost morale on my end, so thank you.

 

[DNM]

Dont want to hijack this thread but I thought i might ask if anyone has tried to integrates a sub (or 2) with these as the fl&fr speakers?

Guilty! Three subs in fact. The two flanking the 8c's and one to the left of the MLP in the tail of my L shaped room (positioned equidistant between MLP and 8c's).

What xover frequency would you start with the testing? 100hz since that is where the cardioid affect kicks in?

A lot of ifs and buts here I think, such as the capabilities of the subs (freq & transient response at higher xover freq) and what you are trying to accomplish by using subs?

I use the subs because they were already there and optimised for the room, however I do believe there are some advantages to using them in my situation instead of the 8C's on their own.

-The 8c's are high passed at 120hz, which quite noticeably improves their headroom. 120hz is the limit for my flanking subs before they start to sound clumsy. I've ordered a pair of @sigbergaudio subs which are tuned flat to 200hz, so it will be interesting experimenting at say 150hz if they ever arrive.
-Each sub is running in mono (both L&R channels enabled in the DSP). This produces (in my subjective opinion) smoother bass and greater timbral accuracy compared to running them in stereo, without sacrificing stereo imaging.
-The flanking subs being on the floor and against the front wall eliminates any SBIR issues, though ditto the 8c's boundary filters.
-The third sub in the L to the left of the MLP helps smooth the response before eq is applied.
-The overall sound is bigger, more enveloping and effortless than the 8c's on their own. I suspect I loose some bass output having them two feet from the front wall and in fairness to the 8c's I haven't spent much time optimising them running solo. Having the subs outside the 8c's widens the sound stage and whilst theoretically 4x8" drivers should move as much air as two 12" drivers, the bigger drivers just seem to produce more impact.

As always, YMMV of course.

 

[Ericglo]

I was going to ask why you have them out from the wall that far, but you explained it. I am not sure what the optimum distance is. Plus, I wonder if the fireplace would interfere with the slots on the side.