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Dutch & Dutch 8c Review

HooStat

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Very impressive. Thank you @hardisj for putting the time into measuring this speaker. I think this might be my next speaker. It was going to be the Genelec 8351b, but I believe this will work better for my application. (probably the studio version)
 

JDragon

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8C-ception - this review sure sounds good! :D
2atAAz1.jpg
 

cursive

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8C-ception - this review sure sounds good! :D
2atAAz1.jpg
Wow, killer setup JDragon! Do they still sound good when you're up at the keyboard? Or maybe you toe them in more?

ps. what monitor (screen) is that?
 

JDragon

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Wow, killer setup JDragon! Do they still sound good when you're up at the keyboard? Or maybe you toe them in more?

ps. what monitor (screen) is that?
They’re toed in enough so that I’m <30 degrees off axis when at my keyboard. They sound fantastic nearfield. Imaging is just as precise and soundstage is still huge.

I’m using the LG CX 48” OLED TV as a monitor.
 

cursive

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They’re toed in enough so that I’m <30 degrees off axis when at my keyboard. They sound fantastic nearfield. Imaging is just as precise and soundstage is still huge.

I’m using the LG CX 48” OLED TV as a monitor.

Very nice, I suppose that's definitely one of the advantages to such great off axis performance. I think yours is the most nearfield setup I've seen of the D&D so far, great to hear some feedback.

Ah 48 OLED, no wonder Erin looks so beautiful! ;) Just noticed the ps5 hiding out down below as well. What a dream battle station.
 

napilopez

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They’re toed in enough so that I’m <30 degrees off axis when at my keyboard. They sound fantastic nearfield. Imaging is just as precise and soundstage is still huge.

I’m using the LG CX 48” OLED TV as a monitor.

I recall the soundstage being very flexible based on toe in with these, something I really appreciated. The nice thing about the 8C, unlike many other waveguided speakers, is that even if you're listening off axis, the tonality doesn't get too 'warm' or dark due to the constant directivity.
 

Bjorn

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I think this is getting a bit off the rails here WRT distortion.

As I mentioned in my review, I had this speaker playing above 100dB @ 4 meters with no audible distortion other than the things that were buzzing in my living room. I even used test tones to see if I could hear the distortion in my MLP but, alas, the fireplace was vibrating as were some of the items in the bookshelves. Not to mention room modes.

I'm not saying that someone else couldn't hear the distortion if trying. But in my case, in a real living room with other things about, the distortion measured didn't correlate to distortion heard if for no other reason than it was masked by all the things that make a real room a room.


Aside from THD/HD profiles, the real "selling point" was the lack of mechanical issues. I have had numerous speakers in my room that couldn't get past 90 or 95dB without bottoming out, flopping around, or otherwise emitting audible issues. These issues are much, much more audible than distortion. And in all of those cases, those issues still remained even when a HPF was implemented to help diminish those things. Yet, at >100dB, the DD8c speaker had no such issues while playing down to 20Hz. I can't name another speaker I have tested thus far that has done this. Not even the venerable F226Be which rolled off at around 50Hz.

I'm not making excuses. Truthfully, I was surprised by the relatively high level of HD components. But, in my real-world listening they didn't manifest in to issues. YMMV.
If you had done an AB comparison with a speaker with very low modulation distortion, it's very likely you would have been able to hear a difference quite easily. There's a reason why speakers with 15"/18"or even better; horn loaded large drivers sounds cleaner, less compressed and much more effortless.
It comes very much down to references.

If you could, try a speaker with either a large quality woofer or horn loaded (i.e. Klipsch La Scala) and listen to both in quick AB comparisons as well as over time with different levels. Obviously with level matching and EQ can also be applied to make the response similar.
 

pierre

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Okay, if this is so, then why does the simulation for the slot frequency response show the typical low-pass behavior of a Helmholtz resonator? Just like the impedance response (in attenuated form).
View attachment 116823 View attachment 116824
I would say that even with damping material, the effect shown in the simulation cannot be suppressed.

Is the effect undesirable or does it not exist in your eyes? The resonance at 200Hz can't be a cabinet resonance, since it was only 0.28 x 0.25 x 0.1 m in the simulation.

If no Helmholtz resonator is involved, then the 8C should not show a typical delayed resonator decay (with possible harmonics) in the 200-400Hz range.
Possible cabinet resonances of the midrange cabinet should be significantly higher in frequency, due to the small dimensions.

@hardisj
With Klippel data, can a single impulse response be exported as a 16-bit .wav file, for example?
Then one could have a closer look at the decay behavior.

Don't You Think If I were Wrong, I'd Know it? - Sheldon Cooper ;)

+1 to exporting time domain data. Whatever format you want: text or wav.

Why: to analyze which part of the freq range has excess phase such that we can EQ more smartly.
I also want to optimize for both freq and phase. maybe just exporting a impulse in wav file is the easiest way?
 

Frank Dernie

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Love this John, it is amazing how technology has made accurate measurements so much easier in recent years.
I won't designing a "F1" boom, it would be too expensive and my expertise is not in acoustics, I bought my most recent microphone stands on Amazon but my daughter has borrowed them.

Thank goodness you, and Keith Howard and Paul Miller are still doing measurements for Stereophile and HiFi News otherwise I would have stopped subscribing years ago.

These reviews using the Klippel are much more comprehensive than a magazine would publish and extremely interesting.
OTOH I shouldn't spend any more on speakers when I enjoy the ones I have, so probably should not risk listening to these, though I probably will!
Amazing how few speakers even have good on axis FR never mind the rest.

When I started using MLSSA to measure loudspeakers, I examined the difference between the farfield response of an LS3/5a with the microphone mounted with a conventional clip and boom stand with it flush-mounted at the end of a long copper pipe. You can see the effect of the reflections from the conventional stand in fig.23 at https://www.stereophile.com/content/measuring-loudspeakers-part-three-page-2



I am still using the flush-mounted microphone but I am sure that anything Frank designs will be a lot less kludgy-looking that what you can see at https://www.stereophile.com/content/gods-anechoic-chamber:)

John Atkinson
Technical Editor, Stereophile
 

Juhazi

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The tweeter is loaded into a horn, which essentially allows it to play louder into a more restricted angular space. Also, I wouldn't assume that is a standard seas tweeter, might be a lower Fs version or something. Waveguide loading a dome tweeter gives you a huge efficiency boost, around 5 or 6 db, at the low end.

Yes waveguide is the key and H1147 is very robust and very popular choice with waveguides!
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/tech-talk-forum/58984-seas-27tbc-g-with-waveguides
 

Purité Audio

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If you had done an AB comparison with a speaker with very low modulation distortion, it's very likely you would have been able to hear a difference quite easily. There's a reason why speakers with 15"/18"or even better; horn loaded large drivers sounds cleaner, less compressed and much more effortless.
It comes very much down to references.

If you could, try a speaker with either a large quality woofer or horn loaded (i.e. Klipsch La Scala) and listen to both in quick AB comparisons as well as over time with different levels. Obviously with level matching and EQ can also be applied to make the response similar.
Well I have compared the 8Cs and Kiis to my Hedd main towers, which have 16X 8” bass drivers which apparently is equivalent to 2x18” drivers and you have to play insanely loudly to perhaps hear any difference and at that those levels the room ( even corrected ) is playing an even more significant role.
If you intend to play extremely loudly in a really large room then perhaps the 8C is not the ideal loudspeaker for that purpose.
Keith
 

Joaquinín

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First, thank you @hardisj for this awesome review. You seem to have mastered the NFS in record time. No doubt your many years of testing with Klippel the “hard way” helped.

I’d be interested to hear more from folks who have heard cardioid speakers like D&D as well as more conventional dispersion active monitors that measure well like Genelecs & Neumanns.

Are the differences that you can hear mainly minor differences in the stellar frequency response of each?

Or is the audible difference characterized by something else? If so, how would that difference show up in measurements?
For example, would the difference mainly show up in a cleaner waterfall with less ringing in the bass for the cardioid speakers?

I do understand that the cardioid speakers like D&D are less sensitive to the room.

Finally, I’m curious if the more conventional Genelec or Neumann + a properly tuned subwoofer array would compare? It is definitely possible to get a really even FR even down to low bass with a subwoofer array with conventional Omni subs.

Let’s say we have proper room correction w/ multiple subs and a superb in-room response—does this close the gap would the cardioid speakers, or do the latter still sound “cleaner” due to exciting the room in a different way?
Yes, I am very interested to know about this. Does this offer real better sound than a first-class monitor (Neumann/Genelec) + matched SW with proper DSP (MA-1, Dirac, GLM4...)? Specially in a nearfield set up, I suspect this second option won´t be inferior, and it can be substantially cheaper...
 

oivavoi

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Yes, I am very interested to know about this. Does this offer real better sound than a first-class monitor (Neumann/Genelec) + matched SW with proper DSP (MA-1, Dirac, GLM4...)? Specially in a nearfield set up, I suspect this second option won´t be inferior, and it can be substantially cheaper...

This is purely subjective and anecdotal, but in my near-field listening setup I found out that I clearly preferred my old setup with traditional analog active monitors (AVI DM10) crossed over to a couple of subwoofers, compared to the 8Cs, which I then sold. I switched back and forth many times (nothing scientific, purely sighted and non-controlled), and in the end I became quite certain about my preference.

I am not so sure that dispersion pattern is really of paramount importance when listening in the near-field, particularly if one can place the speakers a bit away from the walls. Most of the studies on this have been done when listening farther away from the speakers. But in the near-field, where the direct on-axis sound dominates our auditory perception, other factors may become more important. But as I said, this is purely anecdotal. My expectation beforehand was that I "should" like the 8Cs more, which I didn't end up doing. Others may have other experiences, of course.
 

Bjorn

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Well I have compared the 8Cs and Kiis to my Hedd main towers, which have 16X 8” bass drivers which apparently is equivalent to 2x18” drivers and you have to play insanely loudly to perhaps hear any difference and at that those levels the room ( even corrected ) is playing an even more significant role.
If you intend to play extremely loudly in a really large room then perhaps the 8C is not the ideal loudspeaker for that purpose.
Keith
Perhaps the differences were masked by low frequency resonances in the room?
Your experience is certainly not what I've heard but most of my tests have been with either stacked 15" woofers in vented large boxes and horn loaded stuff. I didn't need to play very loud to hear the difference with a crossover in 100 Hz area, though obviously differences become prominent with higher level.
 

Soniclife

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Perhaps the differences were masked by low frequency resonances in the room?
Your experience is certainly not what I've heard but most of my tests have been with either stacked 15" woofers in vented large boxes and horn loaded stuff. I didn't need to play very loud to hear the difference with a crossover in 100 Hz area, though obviously differences become prominent with higher level.
Is this in a normal domestic room?
 

Purité Audio

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An acoustically ‘perfect’ room and the means to compare all the various bass iterations would be the ideal.
Keith
 
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