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Dutch & Dutch 8c Review

sigbergaudio

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so far ok, but a speaker produzing harmonics to fake a missing fundamental is new to me.
btw the missing fundamental trick never worked for me. most pianos have very poor bass
It's obviously dsp not the speaker, and yes it's pretty new. And the fundamental doesn't need to be missing all together in this case, just perceived to be louder by adding harmonics.
 

617

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In theory thermal effects could cause subharmonics. I think Geddes mentions them in his transducers book, but I've never seen them measured and if they existed they would be very low in level iirc.

I've thought a lot about the 'big woofer effect' and the fact is that high xmax small woofer arrays with lots of watts can indeed produce loud clean bass. What they lack are the directive characteristics of big woofers at the higher frequencies. What you are hearing is not the bass having more impact but the fundamental and upper harmonics of eg percussion instruments being reproduced with less near wall reflections. Huge increase in clarity.

In theory cardioid active speakers and even dipoles should deliver some of that effect.
 

sigbergaudio

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In general terms SPL produced through high excursion will have higher distortion than one produced from low excursion. So again generally speaking larger drivers with low xmax (or a higher number of smaller drivers) would produce cleaner bass than a single small woofer with high xmax.
 

Soniclife

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What you are hearing is not the bass having more impact but the fundamental and upper harmonics of eg percussion instruments being reproduced with less near wall reflections. Huge increase in clarity.

In theory cardioid active speakers and even dipoles should deliver some of that effect.
The Kii3 and 8c are both very clear in, a way I haven't heard from other speakers, so I think that's right.
 

Scoox

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I tried many times to play any solid bass under around 100hz with smaller drivers in larger rooms above 20sqm. And even though a smaller speaker can make quite a "boom", it never sounds like it really moves air.... because it can't... it's impossible with such a tiny membrane.

So my take it always to use subwoofers with speakers that have 8" woofers or less. They simply lack the physique of that "push" of air, that larger surface area performs. My guess is, that even though you pushed a 6" out of the speaker with explosive force. You would still just have the air escape around the speaker, and not push it forward - and absolutely never get that powerful compression of air in a room, that adds the sensation of big drums, explosions and any type of physique that bigger instruments and orchestras have.

Totally agree. It's the sort of thing most don't realise until they actually experience subwoofers themselves—myself included.

In general terms SPL produced through high excursion will have higher distortion than one produced from low excursion. So again generally speaking larger drivers with low xmax (or a higher number of smaller drivers) would produce cleaner bass than a single small woofer with high xmax.

That is fascinating stuff. Does that mean that a large driver moves more slowly (same frequency, just shorter throw) than a smaller driver trying to reproduce the same frequency? Shower thought here, would a small driver reproduce low frequencies better in a gas that is more dense than air?
 
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dasdoing

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In general terms SPL produced through high excursion will have higher distortion than one produced from low excursion.

this can be confirmed if look at distorsion meassurements of this subwoofer which has 2 ported and a sealed mode:

image


the ported modes reduce excursion of the woofer
 

fluid

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That is fascinating stuff. Does that mean that a large driver moves more slowly (same frequency, just shorter throw) than a smaller driver trying to reproduce the same frequency?
No this is volume displacement to produce SPL, Surface Area x Excursion. A driver with more Sd, (surface area) has to move less far to produce the same SPL level. The speed has to do with the frequency being produced not how far the cone moves.
 

sigbergaudio

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@Scoox: As @fluid said, this is due to the fact that the larger the driver is, the less it has to move to displace the same amount of air.

The frequency produced is determined by the speed of the driver, so any driver regardless of size will move at the same speed to produce the same frequency.
 

Emlin

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@Scoox: As @fluid said, this is due to the fact that the larger the driver is, the less it has to move to displace the same amount of air.

The frequency produced is determined by the speed of the driver, so any driver regardless of size will move at the same speed to produce the same frequency.
But if it has to move further in the same time to produce the same spl, then it will have to move faster.
 

sigbergaudio

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But if it has to move further in the same time to produce the same spl, then it will have to move faster.

Okay, so what it will do is move in and out an equal amount of times per second. But it will move further out an further in within the same time period, so yes technically faster. :)
 

felbj-htd.

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Thank you very much, hardisj, for this very comprehensive work!
I hope everything gets better in your personal life every day!
Do you know anything about these powered speakers' audio input impedance?
I am thinking of directly from a DAC vs. using a preamplifier for my D&D 8C setup.
Cheers and Happy Holidays to you!
 

Purité Audio

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Laptop/phone and Spotify connect would do, dedicated NUC and Roon here
Keith
 

muslhead

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Laptop/phone and Spotify connect would do, dedicated NUC and Roon here
Keith
Keith
Have you ever tried to integrate a pair of subs with the 8c's? I know your immediate response will likely be why? I am just trying to find someone else who has tried and what their approach was.
Thanks
 

tifune

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Keith
Have you ever tried to integrate a pair of subs with the 8c's? I know your immediate response will likely be why? I am just trying to find someone else who has tried and what their approach was.
Thanks

I have, as a 2.1 and as L/C/R with my Denon. In both cases, it was to get smoother response due to less-than-ideal placement. Also, with the L/C/R setup, listening distance was nearly 6m so I wanted to squeeze a little extra volume.

You need some kind of external crossover as the 8C sub out is just a passthrough.
 

muslhead

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I have, as a 2.1 and as L/C/R with my Denon. In both cases, it was to get smoother response due to less-than-ideal placement. Also, with the L/C/R setup, listening distance was nearly 6m so I wanted to squeeze a little extra volume.

You need some kind of external crossover as the 8C sub out is just a passthrough.
Thanks for the info @tifune
A passthrough of what? if you have dsp'ed the 8c (internally, not externally) do you get the full range, undsp'ed signal that was sent into the dutch that was sent to the 8c?
Why wouldnt the xover on your sub be good enough (not saying you are implying its not, but just asking)
Did you apply a high pass filter to the 8c's or did you leave them full range and add a low pass to your sub? Or did you leave the sub full range too?

I have tried doing all of the above and due to my room modes, i am struggling to improve the sound. The rew plots look good after integration but the sound, does not seem to reflect what i see so i am going to redo it ... again.

Edit - after speaking to Dutch, the sub out is not just passthrough. It is affected by speaker gain and voicing.
 
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RustyGates

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Does anyone know of good 3rd party stands for the 8c? I am looking for a design with a single column in the middle or back, like the one used in this demo:


I also believe this is the same stand Erin had in his review of the 8c.

I absolutely HATE the four-pillar design of the Dutch&Dutch stand, looks ugly as hell.
 

Purité Audio

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Over here ( in Europe) Liedtkemetalworks make some smart stands,
I use a U.K. company ‘custom design’ and they make up anything you like, they have the dimensions of the 8Cs and fabricate the top plate with bolt holes , á la Dutch&Dutch design.

Keith
 
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