Dutch & Dutch 8c Review

[Flaesh]

purely subjective - impressions in this thread:

I wonder what objective reasons create the impression of smoothness and less emotionality.

 

[markstein]

I wonder what objective reasons create the impression of smoothness and less emotionality.

I don't know. Maybe increased distortion?

I would be really interested to participate in a blind test to audition these loudspeakers again in a controlled way. Would my impression be the same?

Unfortunately, setting up such a test at home is a lot of work and may be even impossible (fast switching of loudspeakers located at the same position).

 

[Satanica]

I also somehow did not like how voices sounded on the 8C, especially at higher volume. However, this was in comparison to Neumann KH310 and KH420 which both are exceptional in that regard.

Based on the EQ recommendation (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...utch-dutch-8c-review.21016/page-7#post-697404) I use the following filter that lowers the higher frequencies and reduces voice sibilance.

As can be seen from the measurements, there could be a bit too much high frequency energy.

Also, with multiple subwoofers and Dirac ART, I'm able to somewhat dial out some upper bass/lower midrange holes (100Hz-200Hz) caused by room effects. This improves the fullness of voices.

 

[Flaesh]

We didn't play it particularly loud back then. And perhaps something wasn't perfect with the 8C settings. The owner won't bring them to me. And my system is completely unsuitable to transport (24" waveguides and 40-liter midbass, 4x200-liter subwoofers, 5 amps, and a processor and 6 power supply - 20 things + wires)).

 

[markstein]

Based on the EQ recommendation (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...utch-dutch-8c-review.21016/page-7#post-697404) I use the following filter that lowers the higher frequencies and reduces voice sibilance.
View attachment 550637
As can be seen from the measurements, there could be a bit too much high frequency energy.
View attachment 550634
View attachment 550640

Also, with multiple subwoofers and Dirac ART, I'm able to somewhat dial out some upper bass/lower midrange holes (100Hz-200Hz) caused by room effects. This improves the fullness of voices.

Yeah, adding multiple subwoofers improves things in the bass area, however, the D&D already feature integrated subwoofers and it would be a shame to high pass them at, let's say, 80Hz and effectively not using them. Adding Dirac ART (or other MIMO solutions) with the 8C as full range source of course is a great solution, however, adds further cost to an already very expensive loudspeaker

 

[Flaesh]

a shame to high pass them at, let's say, 80Hz

I agree, this question often comes up with ready-made store-bought speakers. My 15" speakers don't work below 90-80 Hz, specifically for use with subwoofers.
Let's say one is installing a subwoofer system that works well at 15-80 Hz, say 110 dB without compression. Which speakers should they choose?))

 

[Satanica]

Yeah, adding multiple subwoofers improves things in the bass area, however, the D&D already feature integrated subwoofers and it would be a shame to high pass them at, let's say, 80Hz and effectively not using them. Adding Dirac ART (or other MIMO solutions) with the 8C as full range source of course is a great solution, however, adds further cost to an already very expensive loudspeaker

In ART, I have the 8C set to support down to 55Hz and with 4 dual 12 inch subwoofers supporting up to 150Hz in ART, it can sound very full, to the point of rather brutal if need be. My system is not just stereo, it is made to handle the LFE channel in surround music and video. I have the less expensive Studio model and including stands was about 10K USD. The original 8C (HiFi) was never really a consideration to me.

 

[markstein]

My 15" speakers don't work below 90-80 Hz, specifically for use with subwoofers.

This is a completely different baseline, comparable to a Sigberg Manta, e.g. The large woofer is used for mid bass punch, subwoofers handle the bass.

 

[markstein]

In ART, I have the 8C set to support down to 55Hz and with 4 dual 12 subwoofers supporting up to 150Hz in ART, it can sound very full, to the point of rather brutal if need be. My system is not just stereo, it is made to handle the LFE channel in surround music and video. I have the less expensive Studio model and including stands was about 10K USD. The original 8C (HiFI) was never really a consideration to me.

Your setup is impressive!

The 8C studio model currently is still >13kEUR in Germany, plus stands, so not inexpensive (I think it is too expensive, however, who am I...)

 

[Satanica]

Your setup is impressive!

The 8C studio model currently is still >13kEUR in Germany, plus stands, so not inexpensive (I think it is too expensive, however, who am I...)

You are a consumer and have every right to pass judgement and I think you have chosen well.

 

[Soniclife]

Based on the EQ recommendation (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...utch-dutch-8c-review.21016/page-7#post-697404) I use the following filter that lowers the higher frequencies and reduces voice sibilance.
View attachment 550637
As can be seen from the measurements, there could be a bit too much high frequency energy.
View attachment 550634
View attachment 550640

Also, with multiple subwoofers and Dirac ART, I'm able to somewhat dial out some upper bass/lower midrange holes (100Hz-200Hz) caused by room effects. This improves the fullness of voices.

When I dem'ed them I also found that filter to really help, top end was really great with it. I'm not sure why the default tuning doesn't included it.

 

[Satanica]

When I dem'ed them I also found that filter to really help, top end was really great with it. I'm not sure why the default tuning doesn't included it.

Yeah, and because the speaker has such good directivity, it is very equable, either for correction and/or to taste.

 

[Mr. Widget]

Yeah, and because the speaker has such good directivity, it is very equable, either for correction and/or to taste.

Interesting comment on the top end. Anecdotally I have heard others comment on the top end of the D&D 8C as being bright, I just don't hear that... but then the industry used to prefer the very rolled off AR sound. I guess there is still a degree of subjectivity here.

 

[Satanica]

Interesting comment on the top end. Anecdotally I have heard others comment on the top end of the D&D 8C as being bright, I just don't hear that... but then the industry used to prefer the very rolled off AR sound. I guess there is still a degree of subjectivity here.

When a friend and I first heard them at a HiFi show, he thought they didn't have enough top end "sparkle", fair enough.
I thought they sounded "right" after the first 2-3 seconds.

Interestingly, I didn't think they sounded "bright" at home until I tried that EQ reduction in the top end.
Now if I toggle that EQ off with a click of a button on my PC (JRiver), they very quickly sound a bit "bright" to me.
So, I've tried going back to no top end EQ reduction numerous times (I do this quite often), but it doesn't take long until I want that top end EQ reduction back on again.

 

[Mr. Widget]

When a friend and I first heard them at a HiFi show, he thought they didn't have enough top end "sparkle", fair enough.
I thought they sounded "right" after the first 2-3 seconds.

Interestingly, I didn't think they sounded "bright" at home until I tried that EQ reduction in the top end.
Now if I toggle that EQ off with a click of a button on my PC (JRiver), they very quickly sound a bit "bright" to me.
So, I've tried going back to no top end EQ reduction numerous times (I do this quite often), but it doesn't take long until I want that top end EQ reduction back on again.

Well, I guess at the end of the day, we can agree that having options is great.

 

[Satanica]

Well, I guess at the end of the day, we can agree that having options is great.

Absolutely, we live in a fine age!

Having spinorama to potentially improve a product, albeit for just some users (such as me), is a luxury.
Without it, it's really a fumble in the dark.

Also, there is probably a psychological aspect to this, as it appears to be more technically correct with the EQ top end reduction on, so I feel I'm closer to perfection.
I think this makes me relax/chill a bit more.
If a particular recording sounds a bit bright, well it must be the fault of the recording, it can't be the speakers.

 

[Robocop]

Interesting comment on the top end. Anecdotally I have heard others comment on the top end of the D&D 8C as being bright, I just don't hear that... but then the industry used to prefer the very rolled off AR sound. I guess there is still a degree of subjectivity here.

Is this hearing them with no boosted settings in the treble region? I have heard them once and they were bright sounding(had 1.5db boost at 10k) but on leaving the demo discovered the treble had been boosted somewhat and never got to hear them treble flat. I was disappointed but was a novice with the speakers. In other ways they had excellent bass and presentation in sound. Barely need subs!!

In ART, I have the 8C set to support down to 55Hz and with 4 dual 12 inch subwoofers supporting up to 150Hz in ART, it can sound very full, to the point of rather brutal if need be. My system is not just stereo, it is made to handle the LFE channel in surround music and video. I have the less expensive Studio model and including stands was about 10K USD. The original 8C (HiFi) was never really a consideration to me.

I can't imagine adding 4 subwoofers. And the setting of 150hz for them and cutting the 8c's at 55hz. This seems over the top(150) even with home theatre.

According to D&D no difference in sound between the oak cabinet and custom wood MDF (Studio). Acoustically, the 8c and the 8c Studio are identical. Taken from Dutch & Dutch web site.

I would have thought run subs up to 100hz max. 100hz is the crossover freq in 8c from midrange to bass drivers. You may be in danger of masking the midrange with subs at 150hz point. I know little about Dirac ART.

 

[Satanica]

I can't imagine adding 4 subwoofers. And the setting of 150hz for them and cutting the 8c's at 55hz. This seems over the top(150) even with home theatre.

Compliment or not, I'm glad someone thinks I've gone "over the top".

I would have thought run subs up to 100hz max. 100hz is the crossover freq in 8c from midrange to bass drivers. You may be in danger of masking the midrange with subs at 150hz point. I know little about Dirac ART.

With Dirac ART, it's largely about treating lingering waves with out of phase destructive waves.
So, from 100Hz to 150Hz and that is only half an octave (4 notes), I assume most of the contribution of the subwoofers is to do just that, produce out of phase destructive waves to reduce lingering waves that were solely or mainly produced by the actual speakers (8Cs).
When I listen closely, content between 100Hz-150Hz sounds like it is coming from the speakers (bass guitar notes, drum rolls).

 

[Mr. Widget]

Is this hearing them with no boosted settings in the treble region? I have heard them once and they were bright sounding(had 1.5db boost at 10k) but on leaving the demo discovered the treble had been boosted somewhat and never got to hear them treble flat. I was disappointed but was a novice with the speakers. In other ways they had excellent bass and presentation in sound. Barely need subs!!

Boosted highs?! I can't imagine why someone would want to do that... though you certainly can.
No, I have no EQ on mine other than the room correction for the bass. The speakers sound neutral and the bass is great... and I would say amazing for the size.

 

[Satanica]

Boosted highs?! I can't imagine why someone would want to do that... though you certainly can.
No, I have no EQ on mine other than the room correction for the bass. The speakers sound neutral and the bass is great... and I would say amazing for the size.

If someone listens at mainly lower levels and assuming they have normal hearing, then boosting highs could be a viable option because hearing is less sensitive in the treble region as volume is lower.