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Dutch & Dutch 8c Review

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hardisj

hardisj

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Well, first off, show the proof that distortion is audible. Concrete proof. Because, of all the folks I’ve talked to and had on my channel, none feel distortion is as big a factor as everyone else believes. And these are the guys leading the research.

Secondly, the tweeter is horn loaded. Crossing it at 1250Hz is a lot different than crossing a dome tweeter on a flat baffle that low.

It seems you went looking to hear these things. Unfortunately, the problems you take issue with are not actually issues. So you either fooled yourself into hearing these things or (again) the demo was setup incorrectly. I’ll let you figure it out. Just cool it with the rhetoric.
 

jhaider

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Now that I auditioned this speaker I question the integrity of reviews gushing about its engineering. The point of the cardioid is defeated by noise.

I'm curious, what kind of noise?

Crossing a tweeter over to an 8 inch driver is just poor engineering.

Why? Can you look at the listening window or horizontal polar graph and point to the crossover frequency? If not, it's very good engineering. You may not subjectively prefer the desired target, but if engineering is defining a target and executing a result that hits it, no question to me D&D nailed it here.

One thing it is, is different from your NHT Xd setup, with their 5" midwoofer and swept-back tweeter waveguide. Different is not better or worse. Those are very nice little speakers with quite a bit wider dispersion. Perhaps you prefer that. Nothing wrong with that! I like the Xd - actually have a pair of XdS in the living room right now and working on implementing the active filter using a miniDSP. They're beautiful little speakers, though IMO the stock stands are too low. However, XdS bolt right on to Kanto's 32" stand, which puts the tweeter at a better height for me.

However - as you say, data is there. The THD is less than stellar

THD short of overload does not correlate well, if at all, with perceived sound quality, as @hardisj beat me to pointing out.

What dynamics can one expect when the tweeter is taking over 1250?

Where in Erin's measurements do you see the bottom of the tweeter passband as a problem? If there's an SPL-limiting component here it's the cardioid midwoofer loading, not the tweeter.

BTW the D&D tweeter has an easier job than the NHT XdS tweeter, because it gets a significant low-end boost from the sound power focusing provided by the concave waveguide. The XdS tweeter sits on a convex waveguide (heavily rounded over baffle), so has much less reinforcement at the bottom of its passband.

Also, this may blow your mind, but the D&D tweeter and XdS tweeter are cousins.
 
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Boerd

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I guess what I am missing is how 10% THD at 100 Hz, 3% at 200 Hz and 1% THD at 1khz are not relevant. Any further SPL increase would suggest higher THD. The speaker seem to trade THD for SPL too soon to have good dynamics. Am I wrong?
You have (more than) one good point - all these THD readings are in the woofer range so I can't fault the tweeter. That I understand.
 

sigbergaudio

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Crossing a tweeter to 8 inch woofer can't be great sounding.

The waveguide mitigates this, so this is actually not true. The measurements also confirms that this speaker doesn't have the directivity errors you'd normally see with such a configuration, at least not in the horizontal plane.

Where and how did you audition it?
 

sharock

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Given a living room with a problematic bass region < 200Hz, no scope for room treatment, no more speaker/listening position tweaking options and Dirac doing its best but not fixing nulls. Would the 8c with its cardioid bass be the best speaker to tackle such a room? Or would a high end coaxial like the Ones help? I've tried dual subwoofers, but without proper Dirac Bass Management it actually made things worse!
 

Absolute

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In a treated room I would actually expect the Dutch to sound a little dull compared to 8361. There's somewhat of a recessed upper mids/presence in the response that will likely stand out in direct comparison with 8361.

Estimated In-Room Response.png
Genelec 8361A Measurements Predicted in-room Frequency Response Powered Studio Monitor Speaker.png
 

abdo123

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Given a living room with a problematic bass region < 200Hz, no scope for room treatment, no more speaker/listening position tweaking options and Dirac doing its best but not fixing nulls. Would the 8c with its cardioid bass be the best speaker to tackle such a room? Or would a high end coaxial like the Ones help? I've tried dual subwoofers, but without proper Dirac Bass Management it actually made things worse!
yes this type of speaker is the best for this sort of room, specially toed in to the listener.
 

abdo123

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In a treated room I would actually expect the Dutch to sound a little dull compared to 8361. There's somewhat of a recessed upper mids/presence in the response that will likely stand out in direct comparison with 8361.

View attachment 175741View attachment 175742
My quick analysis shows no significant differences between the 8361A's mid-range and the D&D 8C, the only thing that is really somewhat significant is the 250Hz drop in the 8361A and the 400Hz notch in the D&D 8C. The midrange might be just slightly louder on the Genelecs, but with a 1 dB margin i would not put money on it being audible.

1640948089812.png


1640948117383.png
 
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abdo123

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Btw I forgot to share something, I really think the D&D is the better cardioid than the Kii Three, the cancelation in the rear is bigger in amplitude (better) and more consistent. I don't know what's happening between 500Hz and 2Khz for the Kii but that will definitely have an effect on tonality. I don't know if @hardisj already finished shooting the comparision video but it's something worthwhile to mention.

Horizontal%20Reflections.jpg

Horizontal%20Reflections.jpg
 

Absolute

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My quick analysis shows no significant differences between the 8361A's mid-range and the D&D 8C, the only thing that is really somewhat significant is the 250Hz drop in the 8361A and the 400Hz notch in the D&D 8C. The midrange might be just slightly louder on the Genelecs, but with a 1 dB margin i would not put money on it being audible.
I would include the area before and after the scoop to determine desibel offset for proper comparison relative to eachother.
But there's two more factors that should be considered, namely on-axis response (tonality is largely decided by direct sound) and dispersion width/pattern. In this case, looking at dispersion, I'd assume the in-room scoop in the mids is the largest contributor to a duller experience.

It could be distortion related also, but unless the room is very large or extensively treated, I wouldn't expect that to be the explanation when there's more obvious explanations possible.

I'm assuming the set-up to be good here, so perhaps the most obvious explanation could be poor set-up of speakers/settings.
 

abdo123

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I would include the area before and after the scoop to determine desibel offset for proper comparison relative to eachother.
But there's two more factors that should be considered, namely on-axis response (tonality is largely decided by direct sound) and dispersion width/pattern. In this case, looking at dispersion, I'd assume the in-room scoop in the mids is the largest contributor to a duller experience.

It could be distortion related also, but unless the room is very large or extensively treated, I wouldn't expect that to be the explanation when there's more obvious explanations possible.

I'm assuming the set-up to be good here, so perhaps the most obvious explanation could be poor set-up of speakers/settings.
I tried to level match them as much as I can (Difficult with the 8361A slight sub-bass drop on-axis).

1640957443319.png
 

sharock

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Without a subwoofer the D&D8C.
In a living room environment where you may be laying or slouched on a sofa, not always perfectly on the 8c tweeter axis, would you value the coaxial Genelec more over the cardioid?

It would seem one needs the W371 to get both cardioid and coaxial benefits.
 

abdo123

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In a living room environment where you may be laying or slouched on a sofa, not always perfectly on the 8c tweeter axis, would you value the coaxial Genelec more over the cardioid?

It would seem one needs the W371 to get both cardioid and coaxial benefits.

depends how far you're sitting, if you're sitting 1m or less away the degree difference will be more severe when you're slouched than at 4 meters away. the listening axis of the 8C is between the woofer and the tweeter.

the 8C can be optimally placed around ~50 cm away from the front wall, while with the Genelecs you want it more or less close to the center of the room.

These two factors should determine which one is more appropriate for your use.
 

garbz

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It would seem one needs the W371 to get both cardioid and coaxial benefits.
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the W371 a cardiod subwoofer? The benefits of that would be quite different to those offered by the D&D and the Kiis which use cardiod for midrange. And if you cross over the W371 so you get the cardiod benefits at frequencies where the front wall interaction becomes a problem, then you can no longer consider the design coaxial.
 

fluid

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Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the W371 a cardiod subwoofer?
It is not a cardioid subwoofer, it is designed to extend the directivity of the Ones down in frequency, at the lowest frequencies it reverts to omnidirectional radiation.

A good thread with a lot of information here
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...he-ones-my-quest-for-the-grail-is-over.23198/
And if you cross over the W371 so you get the cardiod benefits at frequencies where the front wall interaction becomes a problem, then you can no longer consider the design coaxial.
The design is not totally coaxial in any case, the mid and tweeter are coaxial the woofers are a slot loaded array.
 

sharock

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Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the W371 a cardiod subwoofer? The benefits of that would be quite different to those offered by the D&D and the Kiis which use cardiod for midrange. And if you cross over the W371 so you get the cardiod benefits at frequencies where the front wall interaction becomes a problem, then you can no longer consider the design coaxial.

The W371 is way out of my price range regardless! :(

Considering my problematic area is basically everything below 200Hz, I suppose the ideal setup for me would be the D&D 8c with properly set up multi-subs to get smoothness across that whole range? I can't help feeling I'd miss out on the benefits of the coaxial Ones as my position on the sofa is quite variable.

Right now, I'm crossing over a single sub at 120Hz to improve my sub-bass response (speakers can do down to 40Hz normally) but this creates a wide dip between 100-200Hz . I've identified one more possible location to test the second sub although it suffers from low WAF!
 
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