Dutch & Dutch 8c Review

[Cadguy]

Here's a nice recording of the Dutch & Dutch 8c using the Sennheiser Ambeo Head Set:

 

[Pearljam5000]

Here's a nice recording of the Dutch & Dutch 8c using the Sennheiser Ambeo Head Set:

They sound good but I just hate it that in most demo videos they don't play dynamic bass heavy music that's obviously a better test than this

 

[saggett]

I was browsing preference ratings yesterday (here: https://pierreaubert.github.io/spinorama/) and noticed something odd. If you use a subwoofer, apparently you are better off spending a fraction of the price getting a pair of KEF R3s (rating of 8.2 w/sub) or Polk R200s (rating of 8.3 w/sub) rather than the 8Cs, which score 8.0 for the same.

I own the D&D 8Cs so not trying to dismiss their full range achievement here, it just made me wonder what could have been possible at a lower price with excellent satellite speakers and a well integrated sub.

 

[Puddingbuks]

There once was the 8M, without the double 8 inches in the back. Just 1 8 inch woofer on the front in a bassreflex box. At a lower pricepoint you could combine them with subwoofers with great results.

 

[Digby]

I was browsing preference ratings yesterday (here: https://pierreaubert.github.io/spinorama/) and noticed something odd. If you use a subwoofer, apparently you are better off spending a fraction of the price getting a pair of KEF R3s (rating of 8.2 w/sub) or Polk R200s (rating of 8.3 w/sub) rather than the 8Cs, which score 8.0 for the same.

I own the D&D 8Cs so not trying to dismiss their full range achievement here, it just made me wonder what could have been possible at a lower price with excellent satellite speakers and a well integrated sub.

This is a very interesting question and I think it warrants some real investigation. If you can get sound that is as good (or perhaps better) with satellites/floorstanders + subs (more likely 2 or 3, rather than just 1 sub), then what is the point of these very expensive speakers that include high engineering, but are essentially trying to squeeze an awful lot out of one small package. This applies to Genelec/D&D and a number of others.

I'm sure the D&Ds are awesome, but are they more awesome, dollar for dollar, than some Neumann 310s or JBL 708ps + 2 or 3 subs (probably almost immaterial which subs, especially with 3 of them) + room measurement/EQ.

By taking load off the mains (large cabinet and/or HPF) and having several room corrected subs, can state of the art be achieved for 1/2 or 1/3 of the price?

 

[JustJones]

Since I don't have a dedicated listening room where I can place subs where needed the Dutch and Dutch fit nicely in my living area giving me great sound. I simply haven't anywhere to put multiple subs and I don't listen to a lot of bass heavy music either, Come Together by the Beatles is a good example.

 

[tktran303]

I was browsing preference ratings yesterday (here: https://pierreaubert.github.io/spinorama/) and noticed something odd. If you use a subwoofer, apparently you are better off spending a fraction of the price getting a pair of KEF R3s (rating of 8.2 w/sub) or Polk R200s (rating of 8.3 w/sub) rather than the 8Cs, which score 8.0 for the same.

I own the D&D 8Cs so not trying to dismiss their full range achievement here, it just made me wonder what could have been possible at a lower price with excellent satellite speakers and a well integrated sub.

Well, that's based on "perfectly integrated subwoofer"

Getting a subwoofer perfectly aligned at 80-120Hz isn't trivial.

You're basically doing something not unlike crossover design, changing your speaker from 2 way to 3 way, or 3 way to 4 way.
It certainly needs some homework and know how.

It's often the cause of may ill-integrated systems with bloated mid-bass or holes in the mid-bass.

 

[tw99]

I was browsing preference ratings yesterday (here: https://pierreaubert.github.io/spinorama/) and noticed something odd. If you use a subwoofer, apparently you are better off spending a fraction of the price getting a pair of KEF R3s (rating of 8.2 w/sub) or Polk R200s (rating of 8.3 w/sub) rather than the 8Cs, which score 8.0 for the same.

I own the D&D 8Cs so not trying to dismiss their full range achievement here, it just made me wonder what could have been possible at a lower price with excellent satellite speakers and a well integrated sub.

...but then you have all the hassle with trying to integrate the sub(s) cleanly in the room as @tktran303 mentions, need pre/poweramps etc. I'm not sure whether the odd point or two on a preference score is really here or there either.

I think with the D&Ds you are perhaps paying a bit of a premium for convenience, but the price doesn't seem out of line with their active speaker competitors. How many do you ever see for sale on the used market , even though they've been out for a while now. Suggests they are doing something right to me.

 

[Emlin]

And don't forget the cardioid!

 

[FrantzM]

...but then you have all the hassle with trying to integrate the sub(s) cleanly in the room as @tktran303 mentions, need pre/poweramps etc. I'm not sure whether the odd point or two on a preference score is really here or there either.

I think with the D&Ds you are perhaps paying a bit of a premium for convenience, but the price doesn't seem out of line with their active speaker competitors. How many do you ever see for sale on the used market , even though they've been out for a while now. Suggests they are doing something right to me.

One should not underestimate the issue of subwoofer integration. It is hrad. It takes a long time bu it can be done

I also believe that the reliance on the preference metric must be scaled back... a bit. It is one metric, albeit a very good one and excellent predictor of quality, but, it is not the end-all that some of us (I , included) would like or tend to make of it.
I consider the 8C without having heard it, as one of those speakers that verge on the exceptional.
Waiting for another review to further this opinion. Would be pleased to see Amirm's

 

[Aaron Garrett]

With active speakers it would also be important to see if there were relevant differences in the amplifier section. The D & D are state of the art and relatively expensive Class D modules. Is the same true of the KEF? It may be, I just don't know.

 

[Karu]

I would be curious what is the score/difference with “ok” or novice integration. Say 2 subs + Neumann 310s, time-aligned + dirac. Where in the scale this would fall…

 

[Pearljam5000]

Is the 8C the only speaker in the world with an 8 inch midrange?

 

[Soniclife]

Is the 8C the only speaker in the world with an 8 inch midrange?

No. Also some have 12".
Is it the only 8" with controlled directivity? Probably.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

With active speakers it would also be important to see if there were relevant differences in the amplifier section. The D & D are state of the art and relatively expensive Class D modules. Is the same true of the KEF? It may be, I just don't know.

The problem is, D&D its way expensive and doesn't have the '' unique '' UNIQ. Only the typical top tweeter and bottom woofer (You can buy the typical bookshelf and add subs, and its better and cheaper), and that setup would sound like the d&d 8c, but you cannot buy the typical 2 way bookshelf and expect the same sound because the R series uses a special coaxial.



Kef in the other hand have their high performance coaxial UNIQ, which is quite unique because not many brands of them use a coaxial driver, which IMHO is way better than put the tweeter in the top and the woofer in the bottom. (This can be personal, but imho coaxial sounds far better). You can disaggre with me, and its perfect. But I only bought speakers because coaxial speakers like R3 exist.

Don't to mention the fact that that UNIQ from KEF R3 which all of their adventage ( coaxial ) still have lower distortion than the D&D8, even the woofers are better in Kef R series, because these woofer have much less distortion overall.

I think D&D 8c should cost far less.

 

[Soniclife]

You can buy the typical bookshelf and add subs, and its better and cheaper), and that setup would sound like the d&d 8c,

Only in an anechoic room, in normal rooms they will sound different because of the very different radiation pattern below 1Khz.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

Only in an anechoic room, in normal rooms they will sound different because of the very different radiation pattern below 1Khz.

Oh yes i forgot to say that, but you can match very close these kind of speakers with EQ, aren't going to sound the same, but close
Kef r3 is recommend to listen at 20-30°, the speakers doesn't have any problem at that angle

But the 8c have a little hole because its a lot more harder to match that tweeter and the 8'' woofer. No matter what angle you chosse, you always gonna have that little hole, not a problem but the real problem is the D&D 8C cost 5 times the KEF R3.

pd: the 8c is a lot wider.
pd2: At the price of 8C the cabinet should be full aluminum, also the speakers is '' small '' not like a tower, giving this price and the size I don't find any reason to put wood in a small thing that have 2 subs inside of them.

 

[Soniclife]

And don't forget the cardioid!

I'd love an explanation of how the cardioid is either already taken into account in the preference score, or is ignored. To me this is an area that has not been researched properly, speakers like the 8c are controlling their sound at the frequencies where most of the energy in music is, this must matter, but how much? I expect they break the findings that speaker preference from room to room does not change, as smaller less good rooms should benefit more from lower pattern control and should change the preferred speaker rankings.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Well, that's based on "perfectly integrated subwoofer"

Getting a subwoofer perfectly aligned at 80-120Hz isn't trivial.

You're basically doing something not unlike crossover design, changing your speaker from 2 way to 3 way, or 3 way to 4 way.
It certainly needs some homework and know how.

It's often the cause of may ill-integrated systems with bloated mid-bass or holes in the mid-bass.

Dirac Live is coming up with DLBM for PC's someday (hopefully soon) which could probably do that job as well as it can be done and simply enough for just about anyone to get right.

 

[dshreter]

it just made me wonder what could have been possible at a lower price with excellent satellite speakers and a well integrated sub.

SPEAKER COMPANIES HATE HIM!!!

click to see this one weird trick