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Dutch & Dutch 8c Longevity?

TubeNoob

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Hello,
I was wondering if someone smarter than me could tell me how long I could expect the Dutch & Dutch 8c to last? I assume there must be some basic science behind how long DAC chips last.
Secondly, does anyone know if they would still work if Dutch and Dutch as a company went under or decided in 10 years to stop updating the software etc.


The Dutch 8c are high tech, but my experience of tech is it's likely to start failing past the first 8 or so years. I don't think its worth me asking Dutch and Dutch directly as of course being a business they're probably not planning on going under, are unlikely to be honest about longevity (don't blame them for that) and also, I don't want to come across as insulting.

The reason I ask is I'm on the hunt for some high end speakers (though have yet to audition) and it seems pretty clear the Dutch 8c should be the number 1 contender.. BUT! this will be a once in a lifetime kind of purchase, so I don't know whether I should go with the ones that sound the best today vs something a bit more compromised in sound, but will be easier to keep running over the next 15+ years with an established company (i.e ATC SCM50asl's )

thank you!
 

Purité Audio

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Electronics have a ‘bath tun’ failure curve, the beginning and at the end of their lives, we have been with Dutch&Dutch since the very beginning, 2016, there have been very few failures in that time and when there has been a problem D&D have always responded quickly and rectified the issue straightaway.
As far as I am aware D&D have gone from strength to strength wait until you see their new speaker.
Keith
 

terryforsythe

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This may be somewhat relevant, or maybe not. I'll leave that up to you to decide.

My Velodyne subwoofer lasted about 9 or 10 years until it started exhibiting a low level hum. It still played, but the hum was annoying. I had the plate amplifier replaced nearly 17 years ago (2007), and since then it has been running well.
 
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TubeNoob

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Electronics have a ‘bath tun’ failure curve, the beginning and at the end of their lives, we have been with Dutch&Dutch since the very beginning, 2016, there have been very few failures in that time and when there has been a problem D&D have always responded quickly and rectified the issue straightaway.
As far as I am aware D&D have gone from strength to strength wait until you see their new speaker.
Keith
Thanks Keith, was hoping you'd see this!

Do you know what kind of time line to expect on the average failure rate? i.e 10yrs, 20yrs etc? a simpler system I imagine could be restored by a professional even if a speaker brand goes out of business, I just have no clue whether something as complex as the D&D's could.

Also - I don't suppose you know if the D&D's would still function without the company? say if I took them somewhere off grid

I really do want the D&D's, but it'd be the most expensive thing I'll have ever bought so wanna get it right!

Cheers :)
 
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TubeNoob

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This may be somewhat relevant, or maybe not. I'll leave that up to you to decide.

My Velodyne subwoofer lasted about 9 or 10 years until it started exhibiting a low level hum. It still played, but the hum was annoying. I had the plate amplifier replaced nearly 17 years ago (2007), and since then it has been running well.
yes it is absolutely relevant, I like the idea of repairing something in the future even if the companies lost all interest in the product and its well out of warranty. I'm praying the D&D's could fit that bill but I'm just not hardware-literate enough to know
 

BDE

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At least the amplifier modules should be standard Pascal Audio S-PRO2, so a replacement should be possible as long as you get the modules (they are also often used in other amplifiers, e.g. Monacor). -> https://6moons.com/audioreviews2/dutchdutch/3.jpg
Beside the electrical components also the electromagnetig ones/ speaker driver could be an issue. Someone wrote that they use Dayton speaker, I don`t know if OEM or standard.
[...]As far as I am aware D&D have gone from strength to strength wait until you see their new speaker.
Keith
One question: Will the new speaker be cheaper or more expensive? ;)
 

Purité Audio

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Thanks Keith, was hoping you'd see this!

Do you know what kind of time line to expect on the average failure rate? i.e 10yrs, 20yrs etc? a simpler system I imagine could be restored by a professional even if a speaker brand goes out of business, I just have no clue whether something as complex as the D&D's could.

Also - I don't suppose you know if the D&D's would still function without the company? say if I took them somewhere off grid

I really do want the D&D's, but it'd be the most expensive thing I'll have ever bought so wanna get it right!

Cheers :)
I really wouldn’t expect them to fail at all, when there has been a problem ( and the failure rate has been extremely low) then D&D just fix them and as I mentioned they are extremely responsive.
Occasionally electronics fail, whether they inside or outside a loudspeaker enclosure whether they are reasonably priced or extremely expensive, that is just the nature of electronics.
Every company has to start, I have been representing them since the beginning all the pairs I have sold are performing exactly to spec as they should.
Really they are not that intrinsically different from any electronics/loudspeaker set-up.
I understand your concern, personally I just wanted the best possible sound right now.
@BDE unfortunately the latter!
Keith
 

Dialectic

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Also - I don't suppose you know if the D&D's would still function without the company? say if I took them somewhere off grid
Yes, they will. Each speaker hosts a web interface that can be accessed via LAN (without use of the D&D-hosted Ascend app) to change settings.
 

Martijn Mensink

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Hey there,

Your concerns about investing in high-end speakers like the Dutch & Dutch 8c are completely valid. Longevity is indeed a crucial factor to consider, although predicting the precise lifespan of any tech remains challenging.

To provide insight into durability, Dutch & Dutch prioritizes reliability in component selection. The 8c's boast high-quality transducers from esteemed manufacturers like SEAS and Wavecor. Additionally, our amplifier modules, sourced from Pascal, are renowned for their premium quality and widespread availability. We've also fine-tuned the cabinet construction to mitigate common issues like hairline cracks, which are typical with solid oak due to its natural expansion and contraction.

Regarding support, while the 8c's come with a 3-year factory warranty, we stand by our products beyond this period. Should issues arise post-warranty, we offer repair services and parts replacement at minimal cost. And while nobody plans on going under, if the unlikely scenario of Dutch & Dutch ceasing operations does occur, most components can still be sourced on the market. Our proprietary software may pose a challenge, but we're committed to ensuring continued functionality for our users, even in such circumstances.

It's worth noting that firmware updates and the app are currently hosted on our servers. In the event of closure, these resources would no longer be accessible. However, each 8c unit hosts a version of the app corresponding to its firmware release, ensuring continued usability.
 
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TubeNoob

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Hi
Hey there,

Your concerns about investing in high-end speakers like the Dutch & Dutch 8c are completely valid. Longevity is indeed a crucial factor to consider, although predicting the precise lifespan of any tech remains challenging.

To provide insight into durability, Dutch & Dutch prioritizes reliability in component selection. The 8c's boast high-quality transducers from esteemed manufacturers like SEAS and Wavecor. Additionally, our amplifier modules, sourced from Pascal, are renowned for their premium quality and widespread availability. We've also fine-tuned the cabinet construction to mitigate common issues like hairline cracks, which are typical with solid oak due to its natural expansion and contraction.

Regarding support, while the 8c's come with a 3-year factory warranty, we stand by our products beyond this period. Should issues arise post-warranty, we offer repair services and parts replacement at minimal cost. And while nobody plans on going under, if the unlikely scenario of Dutch & Dutch ceasing operations does occur, most components can still be sourced on the market. Our proprietary software may pose a challenge, but we're committed to ensuring continued functionality for our users, even in such circumstances.

It's worth noting that firmware updates and the app are currently hosted on our servers. In the event of closure, these resources would no longer be accessible. However, each 8c unit hosts a version of the app corresponding to its firmware release, ensuring continued usability.
Hi Martijn!

Honestly that's extremely reassuring, particularly around the speakers hosting the app. Thank you for taking the time to respond as well!

I'm going to wait a few months in the hope I'll see this illusive new version I know your producing before I take a leap, but I'm almost entirely certain it'll be Dutch and Dutch I go with :)
 

restorer-john

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Hey there,

Your concerns about investing in high-end speakers like the Dutch & Dutch 8c are completely valid. Longevity is indeed a crucial factor to consider, although predicting the precise lifespan of any tech remains challenging.

To provide insight into durability, Dutch & Dutch prioritizes reliability in component selection. The 8c's boast high-quality transducers from esteemed manufacturers like SEAS and Wavecor. Additionally, our amplifier modules, sourced from Pascal, are renowned for their premium quality and widespread availability. We've also fine-tuned the cabinet construction to mitigate common issues like hairline cracks, which are typical with solid oak due to its natural expansion and contraction.

Regarding support, while the 8c's come with a 3-year factory warranty, we stand by our products beyond this period. Should issues arise post-warranty, we offer repair services and parts replacement at minimal cost. And while nobody plans on going under, if the unlikely scenario of Dutch & Dutch ceasing operations does occur, most components can still be sourced on the market. Our proprietary software may pose a challenge, but we're committed to ensuring continued functionality for our users, even in such circumstances.

It's worth noting that firmware updates and the app are currently hosted on our servers. In the event of closure, these resources would no longer be accessible. However, each 8c unit hosts a version of the app corresponding to its firmware release, ensuring continued usability.

That is an absolute masterclass in manufacturer responses.

It almost makes me want to buy a pair of 8cs. Well done. :)
 

TankTop

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Hey there,

Your concerns about investing in high-end speakers like the Dutch & Dutch 8c are completely valid. Longevity is indeed a crucial factor to consider, although predicting the precise lifespan of any tech remains challenging.

To provide insight into durability, Dutch & Dutch prioritizes reliability in component selection. The 8c's boast high-quality transducers from esteemed manufacturers like SEAS and Wavecor. Additionally, our amplifier modules, sourced from Pascal, are renowned for their premium quality and widespread availability. We've also fine-tuned the cabinet construction to mitigate common issues like hairline cracks, which are typical with solid oak due to its natural expansion and contraction.

Regarding support, while the 8c's come with a 3-year factory warranty, we stand by our products beyond this period. Should issues arise post-warranty, we offer repair services and parts replacement at minimal cost. And while nobody plans on going under, if the unlikely scenario of Dutch & Dutch ceasing operations does occur, most components can still be sourced on the market. Our proprietary software may pose a challenge, but we're committed to ensuring continued functionality for our users, even in such circumstances.

It's worth noting that firmware updates and the app are currently hosted on our servers. In the event of closure, these resources would no longer be accessible. However, each 8c unit hosts a version of the app corresponding to its firmware release, ensuring continued usability.
The honesty of your response is amazing. I run a couple companies and this is similar to how I communicate with my clients… I provide the best service possible, yes things go wrong and I’ll do my best to correct an issue if it occurs.

Thank you
 

Zapper

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I assume there must be some basic science behind how long DAC chips last.
The analog chips I design are expected to last 20 years while operating at 125C and max rated voltage. Consumer-only chips may be designed to lower specs, such as 85C. In any event, the DAC chips will not be the limiting factor. More likely culprits are more mundane, such as power supply caps.

There is no way any of us can predict the lifetime of these speakers. It depends on the choices of hundreds on components, and many details of their assembly. If top quality is used throughout, lifetime should be 20 years or more.
 

NTK

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The TI AM3358A processor on the BeagleBone Black in the 8c (lower right board in the picture) is designed for systems that have an operating life of 100 000 powered on hours (= continuous operation of 11.4 years) in harsh operating environments.

4_big.jpg

Picture from 6moons.
 

TankTop

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The TI AM3358A processor on the BeagleBone Black in the 8c (lower right board in the picture) is designed for systems that have an operating life of 100 000 powered on hours (= continuous operation of 11.4 years) in harsh operating environments.

4_big.jpg

Picture from 6moons.
Well if you plan on being single for the next 11 years at least you can plan on blasting some tunes to keep you company.
 

fredoamigo

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In 2018, after listening to the 8C for the first time, this was the first question I asked myself, because I was ready to pull the trigger, but there were still a few (too many) uncertainties about the longevity of a young and small company, and the guarantee in the event of failure, and this is the only question that needs to be asked, whatever the size of the company, when investing in an all-in-one, active loudspeaker with state-of-the-art dsp.
Today, the years have gone by, the commercial success seems undeniable, and if it had had recurring reliability problems, we would have known about it on ASR, because here, as far as I know, there's no fan club.

So today, I'd go for Dutch&Dutch with my eyes closed!
 

Chr1

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The 8Cs would most likely would have been my end-game speakers if the budget allowed. It didn't unfortunately, so I opted for Neumann KH310s plus subs a year back. Figured at this point they had a proven track record for reliability and repairability and were about the best at the price. Like previously mentioned, I think that Dutch & Dutch have shown that the 8Cs have similar reliability now too.
Definitely a very nice option.
Enjoy!
 
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TubeNoob

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The TI AM3358A processor on the BeagleBone Black in the 8c (lower right board in the picture) is designed for systems that have an operating life of 100 000 powered on hours (= continuous operation of 11.4 years) in harsh operating environments.

4_big.jpg

Picture from 6moons.
Interesting! and again quite reassuring.. a part of me wants to track down all the parts and their expected lifespan to give myself an approximate overall number, but I get the impression from this thread there's more to electronics lifespan than just the combination of parts. The other part of me thinks I should just eat some toast and go to bed, and I think that side will probably win. Honestly very happy I joined ASR, never thought I would get such comprehensive responses
 
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