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Dutch & Dutch 8C Kii THREE killer?

Sal1950

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20cm away from rear wall 70cm either side of free space, measurements and subjectively they sound superb.
Is that a factory recommendation to run them that close to the walls, specially the rear?
 
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Yes 20-50cm away from rear wall there are adjustable parameters as you move the speakers back, and a setting for free space which is anything over 1.5 metres ( 80 inches) from the rear wall, there are also settings for proximity to side walls.

Keith
 

Sal1950

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Yes 20-50cm away from rear wall there are adjustable parameters as you move the speakers back, and a setting for free space which is anything over 1.5 metres ( 80 inches) from the rear wall, there are also settings for proximity to side walls.

Keith
You feel that imaging (specially depth) doesn't suffer backed up to the walls like that?
At least in comparison to a free space positioning.
 
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No both the Kii's and Dutch & Dutch have a excellent imaging , pinpoint placement of instruments or voices, placing them close to the wall allows th boundary coupling which are part of their cardioid response, bass is extremely punchy!
You can have them further away if you like and there are settings in 10cm increments, they have astonishing clarity and resolution.
Keith
 

Sal1950

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No both the Kii's and Dutch & Dutch have a excellent imaging , pinpoint placement of instruments or voices, placing them close to the wall allows th boundary coupling which are part of their cardioid response, bass is extremely punchy!
You can have them further away if you like and there are settings in 10cm increments, they have astonishing clarity and resolution.
Keith
Fully understand the "new animal" nature of these DSP controlled actives along with the fact that base response can be contoured to match room loading either close to or away from walls.
The question was more about imaging and the depth illusion (delusion) in particular. It has been my experience that these qualities suffer when any speaker, large of small, is denied the advantage of being setup in a free air position. I'm still of the ole school belief that you can't introduce a negative and then attempt to correct for it later, and expect the result to be as good than if you started with the best possible parameters to begin with.
YMMV
 
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Certainly with the Kii's which are virtual point sources, all the sound perceptually comes from 8cm in front of the mid-range driver, the sound image is just really pin point every different acoustic is completely distinct they are tremendously revealing , easier to hear for yourself than for me to describe .
Keith
 

Sal1950

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all the sound perceptually comes from 8cm in front of the mid-range driver
So all imaging is on a plane 8cm forward of the speaker position? And flat?
 
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They are proper virtual point sources, how stereo is meant to work, imaging is excellent .
Keih
 

Sal1950

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Sal1950

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They are proper virtual point sources, how stereo is meant to work, imaging is excellent .
Keih
You still avoid answering the question about free space imaging?
 
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The D&D 8Cs and the Kii THREEs can be placed anywhere you like, they have adjustable boundary filters , you can have them tight into the corners or in the middle of the that is one of their strengths, because they are virtual point sources their imaging is excellent, the best I have encountered I really do not know what else I can say.
If you ever have the opportunity try and listen for yourself.
Keith
 
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Iv seen them Demonstrated with diffusers behind them ( inbetween the speakers ) I'm guessing there's a reason for that ;)
Where have you seen them?
Keith
 

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Where have you seen them?
Keith
It was in pictures of a show demo but tbf mostly they seem to be used with nothing behind ( having gone looking for the picture) .

Cool speakers, there's a guy in the uk using them with another level of room EQ though, intresting given the already excellent measurements you have achieved .
 
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Do you remember which guy, there is an engineer in the US who has used a Trinnov processor with the Kii's to impose a hugely rolled off target curve, not sure why you would do that though.
Keith
 

Sal1950

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The D&D 8Cs and the Kii THREEs can be placed anywhere you like, they have adjustable boundary filters , you can have them tight into the corners or in the middle of the that is one of their strengths, because they are virtual point sources their imaging is excellent, the best I have encountered I really do not know what else I can say.
If you ever have the opportunity try and listen for yourself.
Keith
OK, so I guess my post was more of a position than a question accept to ask of D&D's recommended positioning since you had them up against a wall.
With the software available, things like (mainly) bass and possibly imaging can be adjusted to be acceptable in a variety of locations. But until proven wrong I'll still take the position that they have a best case setup, and some are going to be less so but improved with the adjustments available. Not only actives have this flexibility, many others are using DSP to some of the same advantages.
 

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I believe that Martijn feels they are best positioned close to a wall, this is how their particular cardioid response works , it is based on the same principles I believe as a cardioid microphone, the measurements I made bear this out and subjectively I believe their optimum position is close ( with 50cm ) to the rear wall.
I know audiophiles often discuss 'soundstage' but personally I am more interested in sound.
Because of the cardioid response and because you hear more direct sound ,the speakers are super crisp , bass is incredibly taut.
The Kii's and 8Cs have higher resolution than traditional loudspeakers even with DRC/ EQ applied
Keith
 

Sal1950

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Don't get my wrong, I not attacking the D&D or Kii's, I'm sure they are amazing sounding speakers with the flexibly to help them work well in difficult situations.
But no one speaker can be all things to all people.
They are simply two small monitors making the best possible use of todays technologies to provide the best possible results within their limitations.
 
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