Dutch&Dutch 8C commendation

[Purité Audio]

From Gearslutz,
I think it is not about how something is executed, but what the end result actually is. To be honest, listening to D&Ds for the last 14 days I cannot imagine anything to be improved upon in the new generation. All in all, despite sounding very similar to Genelecs with certain material, I haven’t heard a speaker from any of the traditional manufacturers that would come close to their performance. So that means that their design is actually much superior to existing designs from other traditional manufacturers and it is actually a game where they will have to catch up what D&D has achieved to survive in a long run. It is really not about components, it is about a system. This speakers might perform in your room better than 100.000USD systems and this shows that they have managed to acquire in shorter time much more knowledge about how to design more “perfect” speaker from others.

I really advise you to try to find a pair and listen to them. This young team managed to greatly surpass what speakers of that size managed to do so far...and not with a baby step.

I have ordered
a pair which will replace Genelec system in one room, because it seriously performs better in that room and projects the best mixing exoerience I have had so far anywhere. These speakers really are not a hype and you should realize that quickly wheb you’ll be able to hear them.

Keith

 

[pierre]

Genelec and D&D share a lot of characteristics: the main difference for me is the look. For reasonable SPL, I do not hear differences between 8351+2x7370 and a pair of D&D, the price is also on the same range. At higher SPL, the large Genelec wins just because they are larger (starting with the 1238), subs can also get extremely powerful.

I do not think they are for the same market. Genelec wins on warranty, repair service, long term investment, D&D win on look and feel, easy to setup 2 box system (v.s. 4 boxes for Genelec admitidly also easy to setup) and size.

 

[Purité Audio]

I thought the 8351s were ok close up but bass fell apart further away, they were more congested with lower resolution, I didn’t really felt they sounded that similar, I didn’t have the subs with them though.
Although I have owned 8360a’s and 7270 subs in the past.
Keith

 

[Snarfie]

From Gearslutz,
I think it is not about how something is executed, but what the end result actually is. To be honest, listening to D&Ds for the last 14 days I cannot imagine anything to be improved upon in the new generation. All in all, despite sounding very similar to Genelecs with certain material, I haven’t heard a speaker from any of the traditional manufacturers that would come close to their performance. So that means that their design is actually much superior to existing designs from other traditional manufacturers and it is actually a game where they will have to catch up what D&D has achieved to survive in a long run. It is really not about components, it is about a system. This speakers might perform in your room better than 100.000USD systems and this shows that they have managed to acquire in shorter time much more knowledge about how to design more “perfect” speaker from others.

I really advise you to try to find a pair and listen to them. This young team managed to greatly surpass what speakers of that size managed to do so far...and not with a baby step.

I have ordered
a pair which will replace Genelec system in one room, because it seriously performs better in that room and projects the best mixing exoerience I have had so far anywhere. These speakers really are not a hype and you should realize that quickly wheb you’ll be able to hear them.

Keith

What I understand from D&D's is their capabilty to activate/use roomcorrection. Are you using roomcorrection with the Genelecs and compare?. I'am using for some months roomcorrection with my 40 years old IMF Compact II Monitors they became other speakers sound wise.

 

[Cosmik]

What i understand from D&D's is their capabilty to activate/use roomcorrection. Are you using roomcorrection with the Genelecs and compare?. I using for some months roomcorrection with my 40 years old IMF Compact II Monitors they became other speakers sound wise.

I think one of the main points about the 8C is that it doesn't need any kind of correction i.e. it doesn't need to become a different speaker because it already has uniform dispersion over the widest range of frequencies. This is discussed by the designer here:
http://6moons.com/audioreviews2/dutchdutch/2.html

 

[Snarfie]

I think one of the main points about the 8C is that it doesn't need any kind of correction i.e. it doesn't need to become a different speaker because it already has uniform dispersion over the widest range of frequencies. This is discussed by the designer here:
http://6moons.com/audioreviews2/dutchdutch/2.html

Did read it but thats a lot to digest. I can't imagen that a speaker could cancel my (horrible) room reflections whitout roomcorrection. Listning for more than 50 years to music the roomcorretcion i have now did made the bigest difference i have ever encounterd. My speakers became atleast 60% better they reveald way more itimatcy between the band members because from one on the other moment everything is in balance low mids highs etc. Anyway i'm already was planning to visit D&D in rotterdam around 20 miles from where i live. Will ask them for a comparison between my IMF speakers (with roomcorretion at there demo place) and the D&D's in a nearfield setup.

 

[Cosmik]

Did read it but thats a lot to digest. I can't imagen that a speaker could cancel my (horrible) room reflections whitout roomcorrection. Listning for more than 50 years to music the roomcorretcion i have now did made the bigest difference i have ever encounterd. My speakers became atleast 60% better they reveald way more itimatcy between the band members because from one on the other moment everything is in balance low mids highs etc. Anyway i'm already was planning to visit D&D in rotterdam around 20 miles from where i live. Will ask them for a comparison between my IMF speakers (with roomcorretion at there demo place) and the D&D's in a nearfield setup.

As I see it, I think there are two issues there:

1. Does your existing speaker have uniform dispersion at all frequencies?
2. What dispersion angle would benefit your room most?

Every speaker will, ideally, have uniform dispersion at all frequencies. Most do not! EQ cannot correct a speaker's dispersion, but it can help to steer a middle road between neutral direct sound, and neutral reverberant sound in a particular room. It is not 'correction' but 'compensation', and has to be a compromise. The no-compromise solution is to equip a speaker with genuine uniform dispersion e.g. (reputedly) the 8C and Kii Threes.

The other issue is that if a room is particularly bad, it will pay to minimise the speaker's interaction with the room by choosing a speaker technology that produces a narrow dispersion angle. A better solution, perhaps, is to improve the room's characteristics if possible. But maybe the Kii/8C approach will work fine with your room, anyway.

 

[svart-hvitt]

I think one of the main points about the 8C is that it doesn't need any kind of correction i.e. it doesn't need to become a different speaker because it already has uniform dispersion over the widest range of frequencies. This is discussed by the designer here:
http://6moons.com/audioreviews2/dutchdutch/2.html

DD8C comes with parametric filters to compensate for externalities like room. If it doesn’t need those corrections, why are they part of the speaker?

 

[Cosmik]

DD8C comes with parametric filters to compensate for externalities like room. If it doesn’t need those corrections, why are they part of the speaker?

Because most people don't understand. And some listeners aren't worried about high fidelity, but want a 'fun' sound'. Some people are accustomed to existing speakers and EQ and have yet to make the transition to good sound. Maybe some people's hearing would benefit from some EQ. Maybe a 'loudness' feature is a good idea for people who listen quietly.

And in marketing a feature is a feature. And if it's free to implement, being merely software... why not?

All I can do is to quote the designer himself with respect to whether such controls are genuinely needed (which I did above).

 

[Purité Audio]

The 8Cs have wide even dispersion, and a cardioid response centered around the midrange, the parametric filters are useful for ameliorating room mode based reinforcements.
I just tend to measure and ‘correct’ the very largest peaks, but I know in studios they tend to apply more filters to create an extremely flat response.
Keith

 

[svart-hvitt]

Because most people don't understand. And some listeners aren't worried about high fidelity, but want a 'fun' sound'. Maybe some people's hearing would benefit from some EQ. Maybe a 'loudness' feature is a good idea for people who listen quietly. And in marketing a feature is a feature. And if it's free to implement, being merely software... why not?

All I can do is to quote the designer himself with respect to whether such controls are genuinely needed (which I did above).

@mitchco wrote:

«Next I dialed in some Parametric EQ below 500 Hz. Given the 8c’s mid and high frequency response is lining up with my preference, no eq is required. What we are doing here is bringing down the room modes or standing wave peaks a bit to provide a smoother response. It is room ratio dependent and will be different for each room».

Having said that, the DD8C have been shown to need a hard back wall, not an absorptive one, to work symbiotically with the room. This came as a surprise for some audio engineers who have treated rooms, and the user manual or sales men never informed about this.

The DD8C are great speakers from a new kid on the block, but I don’t see the point of pretending they are more than just that.

For some reason nobody talks about quality issues like newer versions weighing many kilograms less than the first version(s) or owners sending their faulty speakers back to Holland, having to wait months for a replacement.

 

[Purité Audio]

They don’t ‘need’ to be close to a wall at all, you can place them anywhere you like and adjust their position/output via their app.
Dutch&Dutch advise placing close to a wall to avoid cancellations, as do Genelec.
If you physically can’t place them close to a wall because of deep absorbative material then you may be introducing cancellations just as with any other speaker.
I read that Genelec are going to release loudspeakers this year using brand new/never used before technology Alien perhaps !
Keith
The only ‘fault’ I have had reported is the cracked enclosure, I believe Dutch&Dutch sent a replacement pair pretty quickly.

Keith

 

[Cosmik]

@mitchco wrote:

«Next I dialed in some Parametric EQ below 500 Hz. Given the 8c’s mid and high frequency response is lining up with my preference, no eq is required. What we are doing here is bringing down the room modes or standing wave peaks a bit to provide a smoother response. It is room ratio dependent and will be different for each room».

Having said that, the DD8C have been shown to need a hard back wall, not an absorptive one, to work symbiotically with the room. This came as a surprise for some audio engineers who have treated rooms, and the user manual or sales men never informed about this.

The DD8C are great speakers from a new kid on the block, but I don’t see the point of pretending they are more than just that.

For some reason nobody talks about quality issues like newer versions weighing many kilograms less than the first version(s) or owners sending their faulty speakers back to Holland, having to wait months for a replacement.

I'm not a fanboy for any of these brands; merely quite excited to find that it seems as though theory matches reality: hi-fi really is nothing more than reproducing the recording linearly and selecting a uniform dispersion angle for a small-ish speaker (using some active or passive technology to achieve that).

That's it! No obsession over EQ, 'room correction' and target curves; dipoles; so-called 'power response' vs. whatever else it is they measure; horns; honking resonators and all the other schiit that audiophiles wallow in

 

[andreasmaaan]

I'm not a fanboy for any of these brands; merely quite excited to find that it seems as though theory matches reality: hi-fi really is nothing more than reproducing the recording linearly and selecting a uniform dispersion angle for a small-ish speaker (using some active or passive technology to achieve that).

That's it! No obsession over EQ, 'room correction' and target curves; dipoles; so-called 'power response' vs. whatever else it is they measure; horns; honking resonators and all the other schiit that audiophiles wallow in

Notwithstanding that these speakers do indeed benefit greatly from the use of horns...

 

[Dialectic]

They don’t ‘need’ to be close to a wall at all, you can place them anywhere you like and adjust their position/output via their app.
Dutch&Dutch advise placing close to a wall to avoid cancellations, as do Genelec.
If you physically can’t place them close to a wall because of deep absorbative material then you may be introducing cancellations just as with any other speaker.
I read that Genelec are going to release loudspeakers this year using brand new/never used before technology Alien perhaps !
Keith
The only ‘fault’ I have had reported is the cracked enclosure, I believe Dutch&Dutch sent a replacement pair pretty quickly.

Keith

Yes, they did send the replacement pair reasonably quickly (following production delays because of a shortage of woofers), and they were courteous and made the process as easy for me as it could have been.

I had one other fault due to a software glitch: certain EQ settings could cause a speaker to go into a protection mode, with no user-accessible means of resetting the speaker. Dutch & Dutch logged into the affected speaker remotely and reset it, and I think the bug was fixed in a subsequent firmware update.

I remain unclear on what warranty Dutch & Dutch provides. No warranty document was included with the speakers.

 

[Cosmik]

Notwithstanding that these speakers do indeed benefit greatly from the use of horns...

It seems to me that horns may measure well (steady state etc.) but to a real listener with two ears they sound funny - I've certainly heard strange things from modern 'hi-fi' horns at a show. Absolutely fine for PA, though.

 

[andreasmaaan]

It seems to me that horns may measure well (steady state etc.) but to a real listener with two ears they sound funny - I've certainly heard strange things from modern 'hi-fi' horns at a show. Absolutely fine for PA, though.

Then you won't be bothering to listen to the 8Cs?

 

[svart-hvitt]

Then you won't be bothering to listen to the 8Cs?

Touché

Let’s just get over it.

Competently designed speakers sound very much the same these days, cfr. Jantex’s review at Gearslutz. So needs and preferences are one’s better guides. And price.

And these kinds of speakers also tell us that DACs and amplifiers are becoming commodity. Which begs the question why you still have outboard electronics for home speakers where SPL needs are moderate.

 

[Purité Audio]

Yes, they did send the replacement pair reasonably quickly (following production delays because of a shortage of woofers), and they were courteous and made the process as easy for me as it could have been.

I had one other fault due to a software glitch: certain EQ settings could cause a speaker to go into a protection mode, with no user-accessible means of resetting the speaker. Dutch & Dutch logged into the affected speaker remotely and reset it, and I think the bug was fixed in a subsequent firmware update.

I remain unclear on what warranty Dutch & Dutch provides. No warranty document was included with the speakers.

They have a five year limited warranty, have you registered them?
Keith

 

[Purité Audio]

Touché

Let’s just get over it.

Competently designed speakers sound very much the same these days, cfr. Jantex’s review at Gearslutz. So needs and preferences are one’s better guides. And price.

And these kinds of speakers also tell us that DACs and amplifiers are becoming commodity. Which begs the question why you still have outboard electronics for home speakers where SPL needs are moderate.

Traditional actives do sound pretty similar, Genelec ,ATC, PSI etc but the Kiis and 8Cs are quite different and this is immediately apparent if you compare them side by side as I do here.
Keith