Dutch&Dutch 8C commendation

[Purité Audio]

Jon I believe it is only two years but I just need to confirm with D&D,
8Cs and Kii/BXT ready for the ( slightly gloomy) head to head showdown!


Keith

 

[Jantex]

Hello, I decided to chime in here as my short review was quoted in the first post of this thread. I will say that D&Ds are very good speakers, but so are Genelecs and so are ATCs and they all have their advantages and disadvantages. Since I am using all these speakers in a commercial studio with acoustically designed control room, that is in controlled environment, I would never say D&Ds are better than ATCs, because the dynamics and articulation ATCs provide in all of their speaker sizes simply cannot be matched.

While D&Ds can be more closely compared to Genelecs, being a DSP speaker with controlled directivity (despite this being achieved using different technology), directivity is a less important attribute of a speaker in controlled environment of professional studio, becuase you are usually listening to the speakers on-axis and the walls are designed in unparallel fashion with sufficient absorbtion of first reflection points, but usually great control of all reflections. So the innovative concepts of D&D doesn't bring that much benefit in such environment, actually the rear firing bass brings more difficulties to set up right with absorbtive front wall. Low end in my case works better with Genelecs 8351 combined with a pair of 7360 subwoofers - it also measures better)

It is not a critique of D&D, as I mentioned, I like how the speaker sounds and for home user it brings many advantages. It is just that it is in no way "ATC killer" like many times has been mentioned here. ATC with their absolutely superb core engineering of drivers and amps brings qualities which digital engineering cannot overcome and where D&D 8Cs cannot compete, because they are using off-the shelf drivers of not comparable quality. Therefore good set of ATCs and powerful Genelecs still perform much better in controlled listening environments. So I think Keith is really pushing the promotion of Kiis and D&Ds over the top and not doing these companies any good doing so. Kiis and D&Ds are systems that are able to lessen certain acoustics anomalies, but as core speakers, they are not on the same level when all you require is quality output in terms of air movement.

 

[Purité Audio]

Jan I have said many times ATCs soffit mounted in a fully treated studio sound great.
I had ATCs latest active 50’s here, I compared them directly to the Kiis and 8’Cs over two years, I believe I have a pretty good idea of each speaker’s capability.
I know that ATC had a huge impact in the late 1970’s, greater headroom ,less dynamic compression just less distortion.
But I am afraid that was then and this is now, there amps btw are bog standard class a/b perfectly adequate for purpose.
In a domestic environment there is no way to adjust the ATCs no boundary filtering, no cardioid, not phase coherent , not full range, no inbuilt tome or EQ .
The bottom line is that the Kiis and 8Cs just offer more resolution, you simply hear more.
Keith

 

[Jantex]

I agree, in less ideal domestic environment modern systems will peform better with digital bells and whistless, but when you have a properly designed room with proper dimension this doesn't bring any significant advantage. Then the core advantage is powerful amps and great drivers.

Therefore t I don't agree about resolution at all. You might percieve better resolution because your low mids are less cluttered due to the cardioid response and consequently you hear more detail due to the less overhand. But when you soffit mount ATCs in studio environment there are no signt about this. Bass is tighter, more articulate with more impact. Mids are expansive and clear as whistle.

So if you are buying speakers that will be more plug&play in an average environment, choose these two companies' systems as they enable you to do so. But when you need a pure acustical output with large dynamics, ATC is still dominant. The SL woofer of SCM50ASL weights almost as much as the whole D&D speaker - there is a reason behing this.

 

[Purité Audio]

Jan that is rather the point, ‘most’ listeners don’t have a fully treated room and soffit mount their speakers!
Regarding drivers,Grimm,Kiis and Dutch&Dutch’ are pistonic through their passband, that is key, As I said I am sure fifty years ago ATCs and their drivers were something special, look atthemeasureents of the speakers , look at the on and off axis axis and get back to me.
It sounds to me as if you have swallowed the ATC marketing.
Keith

 

[svart-hvitt]

Jan that is rather the point, ‘most’ listeners don’t have a fully treated room and soffit mount their speakers!
Regarding drivers,Grimm,Kiis and Dutch&Dutch’ are pistonic through their passband, that is key, As I said I am sure fifty years ago ATCs and their drivers were something special, look atthemeasureents of the speakers , look at the on and off axis axis and get back to me.
It sounds to me as if you have swallowed the ATC marketing.
Keith

Keith, you’re posting the same marketing as here on Gearslutz which is a dedicated forum for professionals.

This whole thread, see opening post, is based on a text you copied from Gearslutz which is written by the professional you are arguing with, Jantex.

I have always been wary of your misrepresenting things. I don’t know if you do this on purpose, consciously.

 

[Jantex]

Jan that is rather the point, ‘most’ listeners don’t have a fully treated room and soffit mount their speakers!
Regarding drivers,Grimm,Kiis and Dutch&Dutch’ are pistonic through their passband, that is key, As I said I am sure fifty years ago ATCs and their drivers were something special, look atthemeasureents of the speakers , look at the on and off axis axis and get back to me.
It sounds to me as if you have swallowed the ATC marketing.
Keith

I agree, their measurements are superb even in constrained conditions and I am again saying that both of these speakers (Kii and D&D 8C) are great, heck, I even bought D&Ds.

I have not swallowed the ATC marketing. I have worked in various rooms with ATCs (in some rooms they didn't perform that well, while in other they were superb). Even managed to listen to Northward designed room with ATCs 110 and haven't ever experienced comparable listening experience. And I can assure you, the measurements there would prove what one can hear there.

 

[svart-hvitt]

I agree, their measurements are superb even in constrained conditions and I am again saying that both of these speakers (Kii and D&D 8C) are great, heck, I even bought D&Ds.

I have not swallowed the ATC marketing. I have worked in various rooms with ATCs (in some rooms they didn't perform that well, while in other they were superb). Even managed to listen to Northward designed room with ATCs 110 and haven't ever experienced comparable listening experience. And I can assure you, the measurements there would prove what one can hear there.

You mentioned Northward.

I think their offering deserves another mentioning to illustrate what goes into a professional room. Take a look at the galleries and process:

http://www.northwardacoustics.com/on-the-job-2018/

http://www.northwardacoustics.com/services/

So much for «listening through the room»...

 

[Jantex]

You mentioned Northward.

I think their offering deserves another mentioning to illustrate what goes into a professional room. Take a look at the galleries and process:

http://www.northwardacoustics.com/on-the-job-2018/

http://www.northwardacoustics.com/services/

So much for «listening through the room»...

Agree, listening through the room doesn't make any sense, because room modes will play major role. But yes, Kii & D&D bring some benefits to the casual rooms, especially regarding reflected sound with controlled directivity and cardioid response and therefore SBIR. Nevertheless they of course cannot do anything against room modes. Therefore when you are comparing the measurements of Dutch and Dutch even in a normal room the differences are not that significant one might expect. So when someone mentions that these are the best speakers he heard in his livingroom doesn't mean much in general...put all of them into a controlled environment and things might change significantly.

That's why one shouldn missinterpret actual speaker quality with posibilities of speaker integration. These are two different things entirely. Second plays a major role in living rooms, first plays a role in a critical scenario. Kiis and D&Ds are the best performers in the second scenario, and good performers in first. ATCs for example are probably the best performers in the first.

 

[Purité Audio]

I agree, their measurements are superb even in constrained conditions and I am again saying that both of these speakers (Kii and D&D 8C) are great, heck, I even bought D&Ds.

I have not swallowed the ATC marketing. I have worked in various rooms with ATCs (in some rooms they didn't perform that well, while in other they were superb). Even managed to listen to Northward designed room with ATCs 110 and haven't ever experienced comparable listening experience. And I can assure you, the measurements there would prove what one can hear there.

I will say it again, because obviouslt I am just too subtle for you, the ATCs sound great soffit mounted in a professionally designed studio.
I want to be offe the best possible sound quality to predominantly domestic listeners the majority of whom do not want ormay not be allowed to have passive acoustic treatment.
Bottom line the 8Cs and Kiis produce better sound quality than anything else I have tried, and I have tried and owned everything.
Gelenec 8260/7270, PSI,ATC Manger Geithain etc etc.
Keith

 

[Jantex]

I will say it again, because obviouslt I am just too subtle for you, the ATCs sound great soffit mounted in a professionally designed studio.
I want to be offe the best possible sound quality to predominantly domestic listeners the majority of whom do not want ormay not be allowed to have passive acoustic treatment.
Bottom line the 8Cs and Kiis produce better sound quality than anything else I have tried, and I have tried and owned everything.
Gelenec 8260/7270, PSI,ATC Manger Geithain etc etc.
Keith

Now this makes perfect sense and I absolutely agree with you.

 

[Purité Audio]

Another 8C commendation, not my customer, but we did discusss loudspeaker options,
Quote,
‘After what feels like a search that would never end I have finally settled on the speakers that I’ll live with for the foreseeable future.

The process of deciding led to try/buy/sell quite a few speakers including:

Sonus Faber olympica iii

Avalon ideas

Wilson watt puppy 6

boenicke 8/11se

but in the end the technology of the Dutch&Dutch 8c won out. The other speakers tried all had their positives and in the right room I think could have been closer competition but the fact is my room has its challenges. Space behind the speaker is the biggest challenge for me and the 8c’s embrace this fact rather than causing me problems. They sit just 20cm from the front wall and coupe to it to produce the deeper/clearest/most textured bass down to 20hz my rooms ever experienced. As my room isn’t a perfect square instead it has nooks and crannies getting a balanced image proved difficult but again with the 24filter parametric EQ this was dealt with by setting unique filters for each speaker. The cardiod midrange tech has cleaned up my mids brilliantly and the imaging of the speakers is by far the best I’ve heard.

Couple all this with the fact that they are network enabled and soon to soon to become Roon endpoints they will become the only pierce of Hifi equipment in my living room! The amp,dac,streamer,rack,tangle
of power cables, interconnect, etc,etc will all go leaving what to my ear is by dar the best sounding set up I’ve ever had in my from. Long live innovation!

i must say a special thanks to Lee at strictly stereo for providing an amazing dealer experience during the demo of the 8c’s. The room measurements/dsp filters needed to dial these speakers in really need someone who knows what they are doing and Lee certainly does.

I intend to show the speakers in March (assuming they arrive in time) at the WAM show so I look toward to letting anyone hear what these amazing speakers can do in the less than ideal kegworth hotel room.
Keith

 

[Purité Audio]

Martijn Mensink talks about the 8Cs,
https://www.puriteaudio.co.uk/forum/loudspeakers/martijn-mensink-talks-about-the-8c

Keith

 

[Disruptor]

can we all agree that Genelecs and especially their subwoofer look hideous in a living space?

 

[Ron Texas]

can we all agree that Genelecs and especially their subwoofer look hideous in a living space?

The photos don't look so good.

 

[direstraitsfan98]

How do these active speakers sound vs passive speakers? Particularly passive speakers with big woofers. And particularly in the bass department.

 

[Purité Audio]

The monitors aren’t too ugly but the subs...

Ten or so years ago I did suggest to Genelec they make a domestic version, they said they were, and then introduced a white version of their standard design!
Keith

 

[Purité Audio]

How do these active speakers sound vs passive speakers? Particularly passive speakers with big woofers. And particularly in the bass department.

Better in every way, bass is superb.
Keith

 

[svart-hvitt]

can we all agree that Genelecs and especially their subwoofer look hideous in a living space?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder

 

[Disruptor]

Im in a pickle here is cannot decide between a pair of DD8c and a genelec system with 8351 or 1032c and two 7360 subs.
I'm afraid that the DD8C won't have enough bass for electronic music genres and other genres i listen to.
On the other hand the genelecs surely will have enough bass but are just ugly and i don't know if i can afford that much space for speakers in the future like i can now.