Dutch & Dutch 15C Discussion

[fredoamigo]

No what I mean is that they won't be looking for the best bang for the buck

Dutch & Dutch is a medium-sized commercial company that stakes its long-term viability on the pricing of each new model, and I think their room for maneuver is not at all the same as that of an Asian company (without naming one). If we only consider "price-quality," they can't compete on a level playing field. When it comes to complex active speakers, personally, I prefer "quality and durability /sustainability .

 

[berjine]

Dutch & Dutch is a medium-sized commercial company that stakes its long-term viability on the pricing of each new model, and I think their room for maneuver is not at all the same as that of an Asian company (without naming one). If we only consider "price-quality," they can't compete on a level playing field. When it comes to complex active speakers, personally, I prefer "quality and durability /sustainability .

I understand and the product certainly makes sense, it's just that it misses a better solution for sub to be end game performance I think

 

[Purité Audio]

Cardioid sub-module…
Keith

 

[kharan]

Cardioid sub-module…
Keith

Maybe I'm lacking imagination but I don't see how they could do it. To be relevant it should be at least proportionally sized to the rest of the system, and there isn't a lot of room under the 15C.

Besides, if we assume the same working principle as the 8C with the side vents extending the cardioid radiation pattern deeper into the bass, then the rear woofers would just act a traditional sub woofer. Then how would that work with a cardioid bass stand.

Unless...

Some kind of combination of active and passive way to achieve a cardioid response even deeper than the speaker itself allows? Sounds very complicated, but maybe possible?

 

[boXem]

Isn't it beautiful that there are different solutions for the same issue, in this case reproducing bass?
No, bass stands are not the only viable solution, no, separate subs are not the only viable solution.
Thanks D&D for bringing a modern speaker that is different from other modern speakers.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Aren't separate subs better anyway because you can place them in different places in the room?

 

[kemmler3D]

What would be the benefit of a 3-way design compared to a 2-way design, using 15-inch drivers, cardioid configuration, a compression driver, DSP, and built-in subwoofers?

Lower mid-range distortion I think.

 

[kma100]

One thing to keep in mind is that the 15C is part product/part prototype and will likely go through some changes over time. Feedback from NAMM will be an input., In any case we will learn more next week! For those of you near Anaheim (https://www.namm.org/), worth a trip?

 

[slaweks]

Maybe I'm lacking imagination but I don't see how they could do it. To be relevant it should be at least proportionally sized to the rest of the system, and there isn't a lot of room under the 15C.

Besides, if we assume the same working principle as the 8C with the side vents extending the cardioid radiation pattern deeper into the bass, then the rear woofers would just act a traditional sub woofer. Then how would that work with a cardioid bass stand.

Unless...

Some kind of combination of active and passive way to achieve a cardioid response even deeper than the speaker itself allows? Sounds very complicated, but maybe possible?

But there is a space under 8c.

 

[Mr. Widget]

I mean if they sell it @ $20-25K they'll sell a lot more units so hopefully that'll be the price

I'd just like to ask, what are you smoking?

 

[Pearljam5000]

I'd just like to ask, what are you smoking?

I have asthma so I don't smoke
It's probably wishful thinking

 

[Purité Audio]

But there is a space under 8c.

In some early renders there was a dedicated sub-module with four 15” drivers, but that was from a couple of years ago.
Keith

 

[Jannis - Dutch & Dutch]

I'll be checking these out at NAMM next week. Will try and get more details too.

See you there!

 

[Jannis - Dutch & Dutch]

So is it a 2-way or a 3-way?

3-way . All active.

 

[CinamonRolls]

I am addressing the designer here, and I would like to understand this within this very specific context.
What would be the benefit of a 3-way design compared to a 2-way design, using 15-inch drivers, cardioid configuration, a compression driver, DSP, and built-in subwoofers?

Easier room placement. You get additional cardioid help from the rear woofers when placed near the front wall. You could do 2-way with separate subs and place more effort into room positioning, but the 3-way packaging makes it easier to place the speakers in your room and have it perform better; a speaker that is convenient to place where you want.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

Their product development meetings must be really fast.

"Where do we go from the 8c?"

"Make a smaller one, then a bigger one".

Actually, it's the other way around.

The original Dutch & Dutch speaker was big. It started out as a diy project at diyaudio:

 

[Patrick Bateman]

I still don't get the stand mount thing?
At their size they could easily be made as a tower, using the extra cabinet volume to lower bass extension and/or increase efficiency ???
Even a place to put the amps for cooler running.
I guess this is just a lifestyle design statement but still --------------

For the same reason that furniture from Ikea comes in a box:

How do you move a couch up a set of stairs in a EU apartment that was built 500 years ago?

If your speakers are really big in the EU, you're going to need a crane to get them into your house. Not joking.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

I'm still not quite sure we aren't getting trolled with this announcement
It's definitely a produkt for a minimal audience, the 1% of the 1%.

It's extremely similar to the original plan for the Dutch & Dutch speakers; if anything, this was the original plan.

I'm assuming they scaled it down because going with an 8" woofer reduces the cabinet volume by 80%+

 

[Patrick Bateman]

There is no hidden agenda in my question. I simply want to understand the interest and the superiority of a 3-way design in this very specific context. Do you think there would inevitably be a narrowing of directivity in the upper midrange, and/or increased distortion at high SPL levels?

Once you get below the Schroeder frequency, there are a lot of reasons NOT to use dipoles or cardioids. If you accept that statement as true, then you need to go three-way to achieve what Dutch & Dutch is trying to achieve:

1) Above 1khz, the directivity of the speaker is largely determined by the waveguide on the tweeter

2) From about 80Hz to 1khz, the directivity of the speaker is determined by a complex set of interactions between the monopole low frequency array (the dual subs on the back of the cabinet), the shape of the cabinet, and the way in which the directivity of the waveguide broadens as it loses directivity control. That's a lot of words for me to basically say that the woofer on the front can only maintain a cardioid pattern for about two octaves or so. Cardioids and dipoles are only doing their thing over a narrow range of frequencies.

Sorry that answer is meandering, but it's a complex topic. Duke is in this thread, he's written entire white papers on the monopole part of this equation.

The way that waveguides work is fairly well known.

Arguably, the most complex part is the way in which the cardioid integrates with the sealed section and the waveguide section.

 

[TurtlePaul]

My impression is that a lot of people are going to want these but their significant others will say no.