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Dutch & Dutch 15C Discussion

Is the 15C a 3-way or a 4-way?
It appears to be a three way. But I am assuming those rear two 15 inch woofers cover the same range. It could be a four way as well.


Dutch & Dutch 15c Specifications
Components

LF: 15″ aluminium cone (x2)
MF: 15″ reinforced paper or aluminium (TBD)
HF: Compression driver

Enclosure Type
LF: Sealed
MF: Natural cardioid
HF: Waveguide

Frequency Response
15 Hz – 20 kHz ±3 dB

Amplifier Power
LF: 3800 W
MF: 1000 W
HF: 500 W

Dimensions (H × W × D)
960 × 540 × 700 mm
37.8 × 21.3 × 27.6

Weight
140 kg
309 lbs
 
Interesting, why do you prefer to listen 15-20 degress off axis? Wouldn't this be decided more based on a speaker room combination?

My preference assumes speakers with a particular set of radiation pattern characteristics, and also assumes a particular set of priorities. I wouldn't try it with most speakers, but with suitable speakers, I'd probably try it in most rooms.

There are four reasons why I prefer to set up for 15-20 degees off-axis, but again ONLY if we're using speakers which work well at that angle, which I think includes speakers like the 8380A, D&D 8c, and D&D 15c:

The first reason is, I like to use time-intensity trading to get a good soundstage across an unusually wide sweet-spot region. So when saying "I prefer to listen 15-20 degrees off axis", I'm envisioning something like 45 degrees of toe-in, and maybe more, with the speaker axes criss-crossing in front of the listening area. I can explain time-intensity trading if you're not familiar with it.

Second, I like to have a lot of time delay between the direct sound and the strong onset of horizontal-plane reflections. The above mentioned strong toe-in results in very weak same-side-wall first reflections, along with much later-onset and fairly strong opposite-side-wall first reflections.

Third, with an axisymmetric horn or waveguide, there is often a dip in the on-axis sound at high frequencies. This is caused by the mouth reflection, which arrives after a short time delay due to its slightly longer path length than the straight-down-the-middle sound. If we are directly on-axis, that mouth reflection arrives coherently. And there will be a frequency at which the mouth reflection arrives 1/2 wavelength later than the straight-down-the-middle sound, resulting in partial cancellation at and around that frequency.

Let me show you. Here are the off-axis curves for the Dutch & Dutch 8c, credit to Erin's Audio Corner. Focus on what's happening around 12 kHz on-axis and off-axis:

D&D 8c Horizontal.png



As you can see, there is an on-axis dip from ballpark 11 kHz to 14 kHz.

Now look at the orange curve, which is 20 degrees off-axis. Twenty degrees is far enough off-axis that the mouth reflection no longer arrives coherently. And the net result is arguably the best-looking curve. So imo it would make sense to make that your actual listening axis, unless something else (like maybe 15 degrees) is even better.

And remember that this is a comb filter effect, so that dippage is not present in the reflection field. Also, its exact frequency changes somewhat as the listening (or microphone) distance changes.

And fourth, I like to minimize the spectral discrepancy between the direct sound and the reflection field. In general the treble will be "hottest" directly on-axis, so by listening from 15-20 degrees off-axis, we are sending the hottest treble into the reflection field rather than directly to our ears, which would have maximized the aforementioned discrepancy.

So yeah deliberately listening at 15-20 degrees may seem like madness at first glance, but there is method in it.

Is the 15C a 3-way or a 4-way?

I think it's a 3-way (compression driver; 15" front-firing midbass; twin 15" rear-firing subwoofers). However the compression driver COULD THEORETICALLY BE a coaxial unit, in which case it would be a 4-way.
 
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My preference assumes speakers with a particular set of radiation pattern characteristics, and also assumes a particular set of priorities. I wouldn't try it with most speakers, but with suitable speakers, I'd probably try it in most rooms.

There are four reasons why I prefer to set up for 15-20 degees off-axis, but again ONLY if we're using speakers which work well at that angle, which I think includes speakers like the 8083A, D&D 8c, and D&D 15c:

The first reason is, I like to use time-intensity trading to get a good soundstage across an unusually wide sweet-spot region. So when saying "I prefer to listen 15-20 degrees off axis", I'm envisioning something like 45 degrees of toe-in, and maybe more, with the speaker axes criss-crossing in front of the listening area. I can explain time-intensity trading if you're not familiar with it.

Second, I like to have a lot of time delay between the direct sound and the strong onset of horizontal-plane reflections. The above mentioned strong toe-in results in very weak same-side-wall first reflections, along with much later-onset and fairly strong opposite-side-wall first reflections.

Third, with an axisymmetric horn or waveguide, there is often a dip in the on-axis sound at high frequencies. This is caused by the mouth reflection, which arrives after a short time delay due to its slightly longer path length than the straight-down-the-middle sound. If we are directly on-axis, that mouth reflection arrives coherently. And there will be a frequency at which the mouth reflection arrives 1/2 wavelength later thatn the straight-down-the-middle sound, resulting in cancellation at the frequency.

Let me show you. Here are the off-axis curves for the Dutch & Dutch 8c, credit to Erin's Audio Corner. Focus on what's happening around 12 kHz on-axis and off-axis:

View attachment 530601


As you can see, there is an on-axis dip from ballpark 11 kHz to 14 kHz.

Now look at the orange curve, which is 20 degrees off-axis. Twenty degrees is far enough off-axis that the mouth reflection no longer arrives coherently. And the net result is arguably the best-looking curve. So imo it would make sense to make that your actual listening axis, unless something else (like maybe 15 degrees) is even better.

And remember that this is a comb filter effect, so that dippage is not present in the reflection field. Also, its exact frequency changes somewhat as the listening (or microphone) distance changes.

And fourth, I like to minimize the spectral discrepancy between the direct sound and the reflection field. In general the treble will be "hottest" directly on-axis, so by listening from 15-20 degrees off-axis, we are sending the hottest treble into the reflection field rather than directly to our ears, which would have maximized the aforementioned discrepancy.

So yeah deliberately listening at 15-20 degrees may seem like madness at first glance, but there is method in it.



I think it's a 3-way (compression driver; 15" front-firing midbass; twin 15" rear-firing subwoofers). However the compression driver COULD THEORETICALLY BE a coaxial unit, in which case it would be a 4-way.
Definitely not your first rodeo. Nice explanation.
 
My preference assumes speakers with a particular set of radiation pattern characteristics, and also assumes a particular set of priorities. I wouldn't try it with most speakers, but with suitable speakers, I'd probably try it in most rooms.

There are four reasons why I prefer to set up for 15-20 degees off-axis, but again ONLY if we're using speakers which work well at that angle, which I think includes speakers like the 8083A, D&D 8c, and D&D 15c:

The first reason is, I like to use time-intensity trading to get a good soundstage across an unusually wide sweet-spot region. So when saying "I prefer to listen 15-20 degrees off axis", I'm envisioning something like 45 degrees of toe-in, and maybe more, with the speaker axes criss-crossing in front of the listening area. I can explain time-intensity trading if you're not familiar with it.

Second, I like to have a lot of time delay between the direct sound and the strong onset of horizontal-plane reflections. The above mentioned strong toe-in results in very weak same-side-wall first reflections, along with much later-onset and fairly strong opposite-side-wall first reflections.

Third, with an axisymmetric horn or waveguide, there is often a dip in the on-axis sound at high frequencies. This is caused by the mouth reflection, which arrives after a short time delay due to its slightly longer path length than the straight-down-the-middle sound. If we are directly on-axis, that mouth reflection arrives coherently. And there will be a frequency at which the mouth reflection arrives 1/2 wavelength later thatn the straight-down-the-middle sound, resulting in cancellation at the frequency.

Let me show you. Here are the off-axis curves for the Dutch & Dutch 8c, credit to Erin's Audio Corner. Focus on what's happening around 12 kHz on-axis and off-axis:

View attachment 530601


As you can see, there is an on-axis dip from ballpark 11 kHz to 14 kHz.

Now look at the orange curve, which is 20 degrees off-axis. Twenty degrees is far enough off-axis that the mouth reflection no longer arrives coherently. And the net result is arguably the best-looking curve. So imo it would make sense to make that your actual listening axis, unless something else (like maybe 15 degrees) is even better.

And remember that this is a comb filter effect, so that dippage is not present in the reflection field. Also, its exact frequency changes somewhat as the listening (or microphone) distance changes.

And fourth, I like to minimize the spectral discrepancy between the direct sound and the reflection field. In general the treble will be "hottest" directly on-axis, so by listening from 15-20 degrees off-axis, we are sending the hottest treble into the reflection field rather than directly to our ears, which would have maximized the aforementioned discrepancy.

So yeah deliberately listening at 15-20 degrees may seem like madness at first glance, but there is method in it.



I think it's a 3-way (compression driver; 15" front-firing midbass; twin 15" rear-firing subwoofers). However the compression driver COULD THEORETICALLY BE a coaxial unit, in which case it would be a 4-way.

This makes a lot of sense and thanks for the good explanation.

I listen to my D&D 8C's on-axis and coincidentally I recently started listening with the below suggested EQ that addresses some of the on-axis imperfections that you mentioned.
1778121014321.png

I'm quite shocked at the difference these made, and call it placebo, but I think it's a worthwhile improvement.

 
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Definitely not your first rodeo.

Yee-ha!

Actually most of that I got from Earl Geddes. He was my mentor. The only smart thing I did was pay attention.
 
Yee-ha!

Actually most of that I got from Earl Geddes. He was my mentor. The only smart thing I did was pay attention.
Yeah, I tried to get Earl and Floyd Toole into a debate one year at ALMA. It didn't work. But I loved listening to both of them. I looked you up. Nice work.
 
I doubt very much if I could A/B blind distinguish the 8381a vs 15c with music. Maybe after training a few rounds on pink noise or something.

Seriously? They are quite different designs and are guaranteed to sound quite different. We don't even know if the tonality is the same, and they certainly will excite a room differently.
 
And remember that this is a comb filter effect, so that dippage is not present in the reflection field. Also, its exact frequency changes somewhat as the listening (or microphone) distance changes.
Things change though when we consider the vertical reflections:

newplot.png
 
Seriously? They are quite different designs and are guaranteed to sound quite different. We don't even know if the tonality is the same, and they certainly will excite a room differently.
I think you and many members overestimate their listening skills.
 
I think you and many members overestimate their listening skills.
The usual ASR ping-pong.
Without comparative, double-blind listening tests, we could probably keep playing this game forever, but who’s going to provide these two speakers to the ASR audience for that?
 
The usual ASR ping-pong.
Without comparative, double-blind listening tests, we could probably keep playing this game forever, but who’s going to provide these two speakers to the ASR audience for that?
Why even ask. This is all speculation.
 
I think you and many members overestimate their listening skills.
Having done some rudimetary blind listening to speakers I have to say I found it harder than I thought I would.

If there was a difference in bass depth/response that was the tell, otherwise I struggled.

Then there was the Hi-Fi Choice blind listening sessions where the small speakers were mistaken for the towers, and vice-versa, and company reps sometimes failed to identify the speaker they were tasked with selling.
 
Rich people often have nice "media rooms" in their homes. I've never met an ultra-rich person who is an audio enthusiast, nor have I met an ultra-rich person who would be interested in speakers made by the likes of Dutch & Dutch (or Genelec or other similar companies).

Agreed.
well, in a few weeks i go to the Zurich region (Swiss) to install an 40k€ dsp (Trinitov Altitude32 with some options) in a house of of a billionaire who wants to try the Waveforming technique. We will also install 20 18" subwoofers powered by 8 Powersoft amplifiers with in total about 100kw to make this work. Mains are JBL M2 and this is a stereo system (he has a full equiped Dolby certified home theater also) in his music room that is quiet big (8x15x5m). I'm the project manager (and youth friend of the billionaire), the config won't be done by myself but by specialists and i can say this project costs more than a million €'s (also the electric power system needs adaptation).

There are billionaires who care about audio and sound quality, but they don't have time to quarrel arround fora like here, they got staff for that. And they won't show of their system on public, because they don't care about their opinion...
 
Things change though when we consider the vertical reflections:

View attachment 530629
That's what a comb filter interaction looks like. It looks extremely ugly. It's caused by the phase relationship in that location between the sound wave coming from the woofer and the sound wave coming from the tweeter. The energy from both is still there, but its local summation results in partial cancellation.
 
That's what a comb filter interaction looks like. It looks extremely ugly. It's caused by the phase relationship in that location between the sound wave coming from the woofer and the sound wave coming from the tweeter. The energy from both is still there, but its local summation results in partial cancellation.
ANSI/CTA-2034 only considers magnitude response, and does not consider phase. The early reflections (bounces) are therefore scalar sums, not vector sums, and they won't show comb filtering.
1778163731285.png


The early reflection dips in the floor and ceiling bounces are caused by the sharp vertical lobes at the cross-over region (from Erin's Audio Corner).
SPL%20Vertical.png

Dutch%20%26%20Dutch%208c%20Vertical%20Contour%20Plot%20%28not%20normalized%29.png
 
That's what a comb filter interaction looks like. It looks extremely ugly. It's caused by the phase relationship in that location between the sound wave coming from the woofer and the sound wave coming from the tweeter. The energy from both is still there, but its local summation results in partial cancellation.
At the angles where there is a partial cancelation also the corresponding energy is diminished, same like for example the SBIR or the way a cardioid woofer constellation work.
 
ANSI/CTA-2034 only considers magnitude response, and does not consider phase. The early reflections (bounces) are therefore scalar sums, not vector sums, and they won't show comb filtering.
View attachment 530683

The early reflection dips in the floor and ceiling bounces are caused by the sharp vertical lobes at the cross-over region (from Erin's Audio Corner).
SPL%20Vertical.png

Dutch%20%26%20Dutch%208c%20Vertical%20Contour%20Plot%20%28not%20normalized%29.png
You know more about ANSI/CTA-2034 than I do.

How is the "estimated in-room response" calculated? It shows very little if any indication of the vertical-axis cancellation dippage, as far as I can tell. From the same page on Erin's website:

Estimated In-Room Response.png
 
You know more about ANSI/CTA-2034 than I do.

How is the "estimated in-room response" calculated? It shows very little if any indication of the vertical-axis cancellation dippage, as far as I can tell. From the same page on Erin's website:

View attachment 530688
Early reflection is a weighted average of the listening window, early reflections, and sound power curves.
1778165829605.png


[Edit] The ceiling and floor reflections are just very small parts of the overall estimated in-room response curve. Also, narrow (high Q) dips are not very noticeable. JBL often not fully corrects for these dips in their designs.

Example: JBL 4329P from Erin's Audio Corner.
CEA2034-JBL-4329P.png

Example: JBL 4349 as tested by Amir.
index.php
 
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