Dutch & Dutch 15C Discussion

[Axo1989]

Of course there are exceptions. Someone who listens mostly to electronic genres (rap, trap, dancehall, etc.) may want deeper lows. Fair enough. But even then, if the system has good definition and fast transients, a 40 Hz–20 kHz bandwidth already lets you enjoy the music exactly as the artist intended. The idea that you “need” meaningful output below 40 Hz for general music listening simply doesn’t hold up when you look at actual content and it can actually be harmfull to sound balance because modes are just impossible to manage in this area.

I appreciate that your posting on this issue is a shade more nuanced, but I'd still take issue with 'exactly as the artist intended' and 'general music listening'. The first will depend on the artist and the material, for the second I'm interested in my own music listening of course, not the general's orders.

As for 'harmful' room mode behaviour, that can occur (or not) but any situation is more specific. In my case my near full-range loudspeakers have an F6 around 28 Hz iirc. At the listening area approximately mid-room the lowest audible longitudinal modes boost 26 and 52 Hz approx. The former results in very useful sub-bass augmentation (thus rendering the lowest octave more accurately) while the latter excess is easily tamed with DSP correction (Sonarworks in my case). In other words not so harmful that it can't be managed, the net result is helpful.

 

[Axo1989]

10 whole minutes? The top 10 Spotify tracks?

Here's Jacob Collier, playing a dropped down 5-string bass. You can run an FFT and check, since your gear isn't up to it.

or his Moon River

Tell us there is nothing under 40Hz there. Tell us 5-string bass player don't actually use the extra string.... or the piano man not playing parts of the piano... or harpists or...

We could go back in time to 1975 and Jaco Pastorius, or Pink Floyd, since I already did.

Or, check @amirm's LF test tracks.

You call yourself musician and even sound engineer, and you want to cut anything below 40Hz because it sounds just as good without?
Good grief...

NIce track! My guess would be that people who can't hear/haven't heard (because their systems don't deliver) the increasingly common incorporation of beneficial/euphonic sub-bass frequencies in popular and other music aren't aware. No excuse though, if making declarations.

 

[tineared]

So again, to me : 400 euros is the entry level of a stereo system, good enough to enjoy music as intended by the artist, or mix with enough confidence even if it's not perfect.

My definition of music as intended by the artist means the music should be played at the volume and with the fidelity of a live performance.
Will your 400 euro system do that? If so, please list the gear you have in mind so I can save a lot of money in the future...

 

[Mort]

Oh heck, get a pair of them. As cool as one would be, a pair would really rock.

Don't you know? He only listens in mono.

 

[Mart68]

Fremer? Have you met him? I have at shows. He is inconsiderate, taking over the room. In forums, he pops in with incredibly rude language. Some of the worst I have read by far.

No. I don't think he gets over to England very often and I've not been over to the States in 20 years.

I know that he can be obnoxious but that's part of his schtick as a presenter/journalist. Appreciate that can really bother some people.

 

[dagfinn]

NIce track! My guess would be that people who can't hear/haven't heard (because their systems don't deliver) the increasingly common incorporation of beneficial/euphonic sub-bass frequencies in popular and other music aren't aware. No excuse though, if making declarations.

Jacob is out of this world! But I think you're right, people make statements based on hearsay and lack of experience. Many should try to listen to something fullrange with 15" drivers and enough power behind them. The point isn't how loud they can go, but the realistic dynamics you get at e.g. 80dB. A higher fidelity, and a powerful one! Low end detail and texture becomes something else. I'm guessing Jacob uses some stereo effect on his bass, maybe a small delay on one channel, like Jaco did. If you sum it, it sound smooth and centered, in stereo it becomes bigger, wider, fatter- enveloping. This is clearly more physically percievable in a full range system, not just audible.

So the D&D 15c, I expect it to be great, but I am curious of technical details like crossover points, it's a two way in front basically. How will it deal with the low end? Acoustic axis, how high is it above floor? And extension, of course. Measurements will be interesting, for sure!

But they certainly put it in a field of competition, M2, 8380a, 8381a, 1238a, to mention some. Pricewise, it's ATC SCM300 ASLT territory, maybe that's their competition target? My money is on D&D vs ATC, for sure . (Not that I have that kind of cash, now or ever).

 

[amirm]

I know that he can be obnoxious but that's part of his schtick as a presenter/journalist.

It is well beyond obnoxious. He uses the most foul language I have ever seen in any forum. I have seen it twice. He jumps in and curses everyone left and right. Then disappears. No journalist I know does this, no matter how much they dislike you. Here is how he entered a forum I used to co-own:

"MAKES ME WONDER WHERE YOU GOT THE IDEA THAT I AM BEING COMPENSATED FOR THIS. DID YOU MAKE UP THIS SHIT? Or pull it from some other wanker’s butt? I do not appreciate LIES spread about me by YENTAS."

A journalist has to uphold the highest levels of professionalism. No way is what he is doing proper. If I were his employer, I would fire him if he kept doing this.

 

[Dialectic]

Fremer? Have you met him? I have at shows. He is inconsiderate, taking over the room. In forums, he pops in with incredibly rude language. Some of the worst I have read by far.

No. I don't think he gets over to England very often and I've not been over to the States in 20 years.

I know that he can be obnoxious but that's part of his schtick as a presenter/journalist. Appreciate that can really bother some people.

I've been around him twice. It's not an act...

 

[Frank Dernie]

Dagfinn, you can hide your face as long as you want, but that won’t make reality disappear.

I've just spent ten minutes running the 2026 Spotify Top 10 through a spectral analyzer. Out of all the tracks, only one shows any meaningful energy below 40 Hz: Carpet Man “You Will Never Know Me.” It's 90 %, and even there, it’s mostly classic 808‑style kicks aka the most common electronic element that naturally dips into that range. Yet with a simple 40 Hz low‑cut, the groove and overall character of the track remain essentially unchanged, because infra is actually mostly masked by attacks adn the track is well mixed with enough harmonic content.

And we are talking about pop music... For acoustical and electric music we will be closer to 99 %.

Of course there are exceptions. Someone who listens mostly to electronic genres (rap, trap, dancehall, etc.) may want deeper lows. Fair enough. But even then, if the system has good definition and fast transients, a 40 Hz–20 kHz bandwidth already lets you enjoy the music exactly as the artist intended. The idea that you “need” meaningful output below 40 Hz for general music listening simply doesn’t hold up when you look at actual content and it can actually be harmfull to sound balance because modes are just impossible to manage in this area.

Floyd Toole himself take the 40 hz - 20 khz, linear on axis as the minimum performance for decent linearity and we can easily take that as an update for the old DIN 45500 German HIFI norm. So, i really don't see what's shocking with this affirmation.

So again, to me : 400 euros is the entry level of a stereo system, good enough to enjoy music as intended by the artist, or mix with enough confidence even if it's not perfect.

PMFJI
I really only need my large home system for classical music, with double bass, contrabasson, Tuba and piano all having occasional excursions into the lowest octave, and of course organ.

I don't listen to organ all that often but there is a low pedal note in the closing stages of Elgar's "Dream of Gerontius" which adds huge musical enjoyment (for me) and is hugely missed (by me!) on systems which don't go down to 20Hz.

OTOH if I look at the frequency content of the music I listen to the level in the top octave, 10kHz to 20kHz is very low and, in any case these frequencies are, outside percussion, either absent altogether or the higher levels of overtones.

The highest fundamental on our piano is 4.2kHz (there are overtones of course) and the lowest is 27 Hz iirc. So whilst overtones are important for instrumental timbre (and inaccurately reproduced if the frequency response is uneven) I personally am less bothered by losing the top octave than the lowest.

Also as an enthusiastic lover of large orchestral works dynamic range is important for my enjoyment. The super loud bits in, say a Mahler symphony, don't last for long but if clipped a big part of the excitement is lost.

But true if one listens to pop music with a typically narrow frequency and dynamic range plenty of kit is good enough.

 

[Dialectic]

The children and I have recently been into Bach organ works. Reproduction of organ is audibly compromised on all of my systems--least of all my Dutch & Dutch 8Cs. My "TV system" of LS50s and 12" SVS subwoofer cannot keep up beyond very modest volumes, and pedal tones are not played back properly.

Despite those quibbles (hopefully addressed in future upgrades), I recommend this rendition of the Passcaglia and Fugue in C minor, BWV582; it probably sounds spectacular on the 15Cs, which, despite my admiration for Dutch & Dutch, I will not be buying.

 

[ppierre]

No need for a system at 100 000$, my Neumann kh150 and four Monolith 12" seem to keep up quite well. My ears quite less, I measured the final at 100 DBC !

 

[829]

[...]

Despite those quibbles (hopefully addressed in future upgrades), I recommend this rendition of the Passcaglia and Fugue in C minor, BWV582; it probably sounds spectacular on the 15Cs, which, despite my admiration for Dutch & Dutch, I will not be buying.

A truly great recording! I just wish YouTube was lossless...

This certainly would make speakers like the JBL M2, Genelec 8381A, D&D 15C - or any (multi-)subwoofer assisted system with humongous headroom shine. I only can dream of what it would sound like on a good system with maybe one or two of the bigger Rythmik Audio subwoofers. Actually, I have an idea based on previous listening tests.

Problem is that when playing at concert-like volumes you either require a huuge hall to minimize the effect of room modes and/or tons of bass traps.

 

[Dialectic]

No need for a system at 100 000$, my Neumann kh150 and four Monolith 12" seem to keep up quite well. My ears quite less, I measured the final at 100 DBC !

Although I understand the impulse to interject to say that one's cheap stuff performs as well as much more expensive stuff (a situation that often obtains in audio), a 100 dB measurement of Monoprice products in your room is not relevant to what the 15Cs can do, which is to fill very large rooms with extremely deep bass while limiting room interactions with its cardioid radiation pattern.

A truly great recording! I just wish YouTube was lossless...

This certainly would make speakers like the JBL M2, Genelec 8381A, D&D 15C - or any (multi-)subwoofer assisted system with humongous headroom shine. I only can dream of what it would sound like on a good system with maybe one or two of the bigger Rythmik Audio subwoofers. Actually, I have an idea based on previous listening tests.

Problem is that when playing at concert-like volumes you either require a huuge hall to minimize the effect of room modes and/or tons of bass traps.

I don't think one is losing much bass content or dynamic range using the 1080p feed. I don't have YouTube premium, so I cannot comment on the 'enhanced bitrate' audio.

 

[829]

Although I understand the impulse to interject to say that one's cheap stuff performs as well as much more expensive stuff (a situation that often obtains in audio), a 100 dB measurement of Monoprice products in your room is not relevant to what the 15Cs can do, which is to fill very large rooms with extremely deep bass while limiting room interactions with its cardioid radiation pattern.

How far down does the 15C‘s cardioid pattern extend? That’s the main difference I would say but might not be as important if proper acoustic room treatment is in place.

Speaking of bass only, 4x Monolith 12“ will most certainly impress! They are THX certified and show good CEA-2010 results.

I don't think one is losing much bass content or dynamic range using the 1080p feed. I don't have YouTube premium, so I cannot comment on the 'enhanced bitrate' audio.

My last research showed only 256 kbps AAC for YT Premium, which is laughable. That only wouldn't make a difference for highly DR compressed pop music and alike.

 

[Audionaut]

---

Of course, no one will put a 2x18" in a domestic room and a system that is made to reach people more than 50 meter from the source

I shouldn't be posting here, because I've actually owned several speakers with 18-inch woofers, and they were in one of my living rooms, too.
Currently, I only have an 18-inch subwoofer.

Besides, I don’t know a single billionaire personally. I feel bad and unworthy to be posting in this forum.

But now to something completely different:
Still, I’d like to know which compression drivers are used in the DD 15c? Does anyone know? And are the woofers custom-made?

 

[829]

[...] I feel bad and unworthy to be posting in this forum.

Haha, unworthy I am as well! Not sure you have to be a billionaire to be able to afford the D&D 15C, though. At least who'll buy them will almost certainly get a state-of-the-art, high-SPL audio reproduction system (unlike with other recent introductions like from Wilson Audio).

Are there different and less expensive ways to achieve a similar or maybe even superior audio reproduction? Most probably. But for some, this is the way.

A friend of mine would agree not to put 2x 18“ in a domestic room. That’s probably why he decided on 2x 15“ and 4x 12“ woofers.^^ Worst part is, since I experienced the compression free dynamic capabilities, I don't like to go to the movies any more...

 

[CinamonRolls]

Michael Fremer bragged that he borrowed money to buy a turntable.

Genuine ostrich. Three payments.

 

[Jaxx1138]

Back in my HEA days I knew and used products from SoundAnchors . These are not cheap, but are extremely well-made: e,g:
Something like this:

View attachment 506163

Or have it made by some local metal shop ...
TBH, finding a stand for this speaker is not an issue.

Used those in the Harman reference room back in my day.

 

[Jaxx1138]

In theory, would the 15C be better if it was coaxial?

Yes, as long as the dynamic range/compression and distortion is not limited.

 

[Jaxx1138]

Looks like a 1.4" throat compression driver. I don't think 1.4" throat compression drivers are very common on Oblate Spheroid-ish waveguides. One implication is that there will probably be some pattern-narrowing in the top octave. Another implication is that will the system have enormous dynamic capability combined with finesse at very low levels.

The Klipsch Jubilee uses a lens in front of the compression driver for a very similar type system. Might work here too.