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DT 770 Pro EQ According To Oratory1990 BEST Harman Settings - Why does my curve not look like Oratorys?

alphachannel

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Hi everybody!

I've been trying to EQ my DT 770 Pro 250 according to Oratory1990's settings.

Using APO Equalizer with Windows 10.
Full Graphs + Oratory Page attached
ga9T2FTI.png


So I just created another config file and transferred the settings according to APO's documentation and the recommended order/syntax.

Preamp: -2.6 dB
Filter 1: ON PK Fc 43 Hz Gain -9.5 dB Q 0.25 BW Oct 4.17
Filter 2: ON PK Fc 90 Hz Gain 2,0 dB Q 1,4 BW Oct 1,01
Filter 3: ON LS Fc 105 Hz Gain 5.5 dB Q 0.71
Filter 4: ON PK Fc 210 Hz Gain 6,0 dB Q 1,3 BW Oct 1,08
Filter 5: ON PK Fc 2550 Hz Gain -1,6 dB Q 2,0 BW Oct 0,71
Filter 6: ON PK Fc 3800 Hz Gain 3,0 dB Q 1,0 Q BW Oct 1,39
Filter 7: ON PK Fc 5100 Hz Gain -2,8 dB Q 3,0 BW Oct 0,48
Filter 8: ON PK Fc 6450 Hz Gain -4,0 dB Q 4,0 BW Oct 0,36
Filter 9: ON PK Fc 8300 Hz Gain -3,9 dB Q 4,0 BW Oct 0,36
Filter 10: ON HS Fc 10000 Hz Gain -4,0 dB Q 0,71

I couldn't find out how to add the values for "Deviation from Target" & "Preference Rating". I'm thinking maybe this is just a guide and not something I have to punch into the EQ.

This is what it looks like once I open up APO:
Untixxxxtled.png


The sound changes when I switch the ON/OFF button repeatedly, so something is definitely happening.

I'm just wondering why my graph in APO looks nothing like the one on Oratory's page?
ga9T2FTI.png
 

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spacevector

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Looks quite the same to me. Check the x and y axis scales and it will start looking similar.

How does it sound?
 
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alphachannel

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Looks quite the same to me. Check the x and y axis scales and it will start looking similar.

How does it sound?
Hi, thanks for the reply!

I suspected something like that, thanks for confirming it.

The sound is ok, but I still get that fatigue and ear pain with Oratory's settings. I already know what's causing the pain though.

At around 6Khz - 6.7Khz & 14Khz there is a gain of almost 12db, which is absolutely insane. This is the source of most people's complaints of discomfort about these headphones.
Firefox_Screenshot_2021-10-08T00-43-43.887Z.png


Oratory1990's settings do help a bit, but these piercing higher frequencies are still quite uncomfortable. If this is really as close to the Harman target as one can get with the 770 Pros, then the Harman target is not for me lol.

I've found that these settings are much more comfortable and the pain issue is practically solved.
Graphical EQ settings from jaakkopasanen @ Github
Preamp: -4.6 dB
GraphicEQ: 20 -10.5; 21 -10.5; 22 -10.7; 23 -10.8; 24 -10.9; 26 -11.1; 27 -11.3; 29 -11.4; 30 -11.5; 32 -11.6; 34 -11.6; 36 -11.7; 38 -11.6; 40 -11.6; 43 -11.5; 45 -11.5; 48 -11.4; 50 -11.3; 53 -11.0; 56 -10.6; 59 -10.1; 63 -9.3; 66 -8.6; 70 -8.0; 74 -7.4; 78 -6.5; 83 -5.3; 87 -4.9; 92 -5.4; 97 -6.5; 103 -7.9; 109 -9.0; 115 -9.7; 121 -10.0; 128 -9.8; 136 -9.7; 143 -9.4; 151 -8.9; 160 -7.8; 169 -6.6; 178 -5.3; 188 -3.9; 199 -2.7; 210 -2.1; 222 -2.0; 235 -2.3; 248 -2.7; 262 -3.1; 277 -3.5; 292 -3.9; 309 -4.1; 326 -4.3; 345 -4.5; 364 -4.6; 385 -4.7; 406 -4.8; 429 -4.9; 453 -4.9; 479 -4.9; 506 -4.8; 534 -4.8; 565 -4.8; 596 -4.8; 630 -4.9; 665 -5.1; 703 -5.3; 743 -5.6; 784 -5.9; 829 -6.3; 875 -6.5; 924 -6.5; 977 -6.2; 1032 -5.9; 1090 -5.7; 1151 -5.7; 1216 -5.9; 1284 -6.1; 1357 -6.1; 1433 -5.8; 1514 -5.4; 1599 -5.1; 1689 -4.8; 1784 -4.9; 1885 -4.8; 1991 -4.6; 2103 -4.3; 2221 -3.9; 2347 -3.5; 2479 -3.2; 2618 -3.2; 2766 -3.3; 2921 -3.6; 3086 -3.6; 3260 -2.9; 3443 -1.6; 3637 -0.2; 3842 -0.6; 4058 -2.1; 4287 -3.6; 4528 -5.0; 4783 -6.4; 5052 -7.8; 5337 -8.9; 5637 -9.8; 5955 -11.3; 6290 -12.4; 6644 -11.4; 7018 -10.0; 7414 -9.6; 7831 -9.6; 8272 -9.4; 8738 -9.0; 9230 -8.6; 9749 -8.4; 10298 -8.4; 10878 -8.5; 11490 -8.8; 12137 -9.1; 12821 -9.4; 13543 -9.8; 14305 -10.3; 15110 -10.8; 15961 -11.4; 16860 -12.1; 17809 -12.8; 18812 -13.5; 19871 -14.4
GraphicalEQ.png


I personally dropped the gain at 6.3khz by an additional -4.5 db. Same at around 14khz, and now I can listen to these headphones for 1 hour without any discomfort at all. I turn my amp's volume knob to 1 o'clock at low gain. It's the JDS Atom btw.
 
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solderdude

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RAA compensation is incorrect and should not be used to EQ on.

7kHz needs -8dB and 13kHz needs -7dB
Q= 4 for both filters, maybe somewhere between 3 and 4.

The HATS used are incorrect above 8kHz and an incorrect EQ is to be expected.
Below 8kHz it is accurate. Below 200Hz adjust EQ to taste.
Seal issues may also warrant a different EQ below 200Hz.
13kHz peak = nasty sharp edge to instruments.

Headphone measurements is not an exact science as some folks make it out to be.
 
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alphachannel

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RAA compensation is incorrect and should not be used to EQ on.

7kHz needs -8dB and 13kHz needs -7dB
Q= 4 for both filters, maybe somewhere between 3 and 4.

The HATS used are incorrect above 8kHz and an incorrect EQ is to be expected.
Below 8kHz it is accurate. Below 200Hz adjust EQ to taste.
Seal issues may also warrant a different EQ below 200Hz.
13kHz peak = nasty sharp edge to instruments.

Headphone measurements is not an exact science as some folks make it out to be.
Hi there, thanks for your reply!
I'm guessing you're referring to jaakkopasanen's EQ settings on Github, not Oratory's. https://github.com/jaakkopasanen/AutoEq/tree/master/results/crinacle/gras_43ag-7_harman_over-ear_2018/Beyerdynamic DT 770 250 Ohm

As I understand it, those settings are coming directly from the guy who actually helped design the T1 and 990s back in the day.
They are also the most detailed I could find for the 770 Pros.

I tested both Jaak's and Oratory's settings, extensively.
Either my ears are simply not used to it or I'm on the young side still, but I just cannot tolerate these peaks at around 6khz and 13khz. It's literally painful and I notice right away that I need those way down.

For me personally, -7db or -8db is not enough there. I believe the output of the amp also plays into this. -16db at 6khz and -15db at 13khz is where it starts getting comfortable with the Atom at 1 o'clock.

I had to google some of the terms you used lol.
On the Readme page, he explains his reasoning behind these "Hi-Hats".
I also had to choose my own Q settings for the GraphicalEQ one.
Still reading up on it, but yeah I have it at around 4 for those. The 1.41 is apparently not universally applicable.
 

solderdude

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I believe the output of the amp also plays into this.
Nope, it doesn't

When you need more attenuation simply increase the amount of dB at these 2 filters.
These values are derived from my own measurements.
HATS measurements cannot be used above 8kHz they are simply not showing what the driver does and what you hear.
 
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alphachannel

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Nope.

When you need more attenuation simply increase the amount of dB at these 2 filters.
OK that I don't understand.
Is there then a unified output level each amp must have for any given EQ settings?

Obviously, your amp's volume is gonna be at a certain position and so is mine, how can we both get the same result from any given set of EQ settings, if that gain is unregulated?

How much output should my amp have to accurately represent those settings, not in terms of preference, but necessity to offer most accurate sound reproduction.
 

solderdude

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Amps and EQ are not related.
An amplifier simply amplifies what is applied on its input.
It does not change the sound.

EQ settings are independent of the amplifier section. EQ is software that changes the frequency response. It does so regardless of listening volume.
Your hearing is what's non linear. Meaning at a lower listening level you hear less bass. It is not the EQ that does this.

You can simply use Oratory settings but change the last 2 filter settings (band 9 and 10).
You should adjust band 3 to 'taste'.
 
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alphachannel

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Amps and EQ are not related.
An amplifier simply amplifies what is applied on its input.
It does not change the sound.

EQ settings are independent of the amplifier section. EQ is software that changes the frequency response. It does so regardless of listening volume.
Your hearing is what's non linear. Meaning at a lower listening level you hear less bass. It is not the EQ that does this.

You can simply use Oratory settings but change the last 2 filter settings (band 9 and 10).
You should adjust band 3 to 'taste'.
Yeah, exactly that's what I mean.
You produce a specific frequency curve with the EQ and the amp controls the volume/gain, but how can we both have the same result if the amp gain is different?

For example, at 50hz we both use -8db in the EQ.
If my amp produces 10db gain and yours only 7db, won't we both perceive the bass differently?
 

solderdude

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Yeah, exactly that's what I mean.
You produce a specific frequency curve with the EQ and the amp controls the volume/gain, but how can we both have the same result if the amp gain is different?

For example, at 50hz we both use -8db in the EQ.
If my amp produces 10db gain and yours only 7db, won't we both perceive the bass differently?

Gain and volume control are totally irrelevant.

When I set 50Hz -8dB and you set 50Hz at -8dB then in both cases the headphone simply reproduces 50Hz -8dB, compared to say everything above a few hundred Hz.
The amp does not matter, how high the gain of the amp is, what your volume level is, what the efficiency of the headphone is.
It all doesn't matter. 50Hz is attenuated 8dB in both cases.
It also does not matter if your headphone has too much or too little bass. Applying that EQ will always have the exact same effect. 50Hz is attenuated by 8dB.
 

charleski

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While it's great that people have produced large measurement databases for headphones (and this certainly has required a lot of work), it's unfortunate that this has engendered the perception that we can get an optimal frequency response from them simply by dialing in an EQ prescription.

The Harman curve is a design target for manufacturers who want to make headphones that will produce an acceptable response for the majority of people, and it's proved to be better at that than other design targets that have been used. It offers no guarantee that a headphone that closely matches it will be the best possible solution for your particular hearing/preference. It's a good starting point, but if you want an optimal response you have to be prepared to modify the EQ yourself to correct problems that you hear. Personally, I've found that it takes repeated small adjustments over the course of several months to get the EQ for a particular set of headphones just right.
 

audiofilet

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Gain and volume control are totally irrelevant.

The amp does not matter, how high the gain of the amp is, what your volume level is, what the efficiency of the headphone is.
It all doesn't matter.
Excuse me, what?

That's nonsense.
Of course your amp gain and headphone efficiency will influence how that curve is reproduced.

You're telling the OP that as long as he has a V8 engine he'll be fine, regardless if that engine is inside a 1999 Toyota Echo lmao.
 

zermak

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Excuse me, what?

That's nonsense.
Of course your amp gain and headphone efficiency will influence how that curve is reproduced.

You're telling the OP that as long as he has a V8 engine he'll be fine, regardless if that engine is inside a 1999 Toyota Echo lmao.
I think you misunderstood @solderdude . If you apply any EQ to the signal before reaching an amplifiers it does not matter what gain or volume level or efficency of the headphone are because the amp will indeed amplify the signal it receives. It is another story if the amp is poweful enough or with low impedence to properly drive the headphones attached to it and it has nothing to do with the previous EQ itself.
 

solderdude

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Of course your amp gain and headphone efficiency will influence how that curve is reproduced.

No they are not related.

I can make a sweep with or without EQ at various levels and they will be exactly the same.
See my sweep below for HD590 for instance.

no-compression.png


4 measurements made at 70, 80, 90 and 96dB SPL overlaid to see tonal differences.
This is to test for linearity issues.

You're telling the OP that as long as he has a V8 engine he'll be fine, regardless if that engine is inside a 1999 Toyota Echo lmao.
I have never seen a car analogy that works really well comparing car properties to headphone/amp properties. :facepalm:

OP said nothing about output impedance, efficiency, output power (voltage) which only becomes an issue when amp limits or headphone limits are reached.

Amplifier gain and pre-amp gain that is needed when one has made a 'boost' are totally different things. OP talked about the output of the amplifier.
 
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audiofilet

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I think you misunderstood @solderdude . If you apply any EQ to the signal before reaching an amplifiers it does not matter what gain or volume level or efficency of the headphone are because the amp will indeed amplify the signal it receives. It is another story if the amp is poweful enough or with low impedence to properly drive the headphones attached to it and it has nothing to do with the previous EQ itself.
Oh OK, I see. The question was whether an amp can literally influence the gain applied by the EQ.

Yeah, my bad.

@OP the graphical EQ you posted above is by far more detailed than that 10 band target by Oratory. I have a pair of 990s and will check that one out on github. Looks promising
 

zermak

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@OP the graphical EQ you posted above is by far more detailed than that 10 band target by Oratory. I have a pair of 990s and will check that one out on github. Looks promising
Best way to EQ for what I know is the use of (Frequency?) Impulse Response (FIR), than parametric EQs, than fixed band EQs and lastly the graphic EQs.
You can find alredy made FIR (for both 48kHz and 44.1kHZ) on AutoEQ github page for every headphones measured by Crinacle, Rtings, Oratory and a few others.
So my suggestion is to try to properly apply the parametric EQs or try the convolution FIR wav files you can find on that site.
 

audiofilet

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Best way to EQ for what I know is the use of (Frequency?) Impulse Response (FIR), than parametric EQs, than fixed band EQs and lastly the graphic EQs.
You can find alredy made FIR (for both 48kHz and 44.1kHZ) on AutoEQ github page for every headphones measured by Crinacle, Rtings, Oratory and a few others.
So my suggestion is to try to properly apply the parametric EQs or try the convolution FIR wav files you can find on that site.
Yeah, the "Graphic EQ" settings the OP posted above are actually Parametric EQ. I think the "graphic" part just refers to APO's graphical interface for it.

I couldn't find any FIR stuff for the 770/990 though.

Here they are:
That's as precise as you're gonna get, EQ-wise.
Preamp: -4.6 dB
GraphicEQ: 20 -10.5; 21 -10.5; 22 -10.7; 23 -10.8; 24 -10.9; 26 -11.1; 27 -11.3; 29 -11.4; 30 -11.5; 32 -11.6; 34 -11.6; 36 -11.7; 38 -11.6; 40 -11.6; 43 -11.5; 45 -11.5; 48 -11.4; 50 -11.3; 53 -11.0; 56 -10.6; 59 -10.1; 63 -9.3; 66 -8.6; 70 -8.0; 74 -7.4; 78 -6.5; 83 -5.3; 87 -4.9; 92 -5.4; 97 -6.5; 103 -7.9; 109 -9.0; 115 -9.7; 121 -10.0; 128 -9.8; 136 -9.7; 143 -9.4; 151 -8.9; 160 -7.8; 169 -6.6; 178 -5.3; 188 -3.9; 199 -2.7; 210 -2.1; 222 -2.0; 235 -2.3; 248 -2.7; 262 -3.1; 277 -3.5; 292 -3.9; 309 -4.1; 326 -4.3; 345 -4.5; 364 -4.6; 385 -4.7; 406 -4.8; 429 -4.9; 453 -4.9; 479 -4.9; 506 -4.8; 534 -4.8; 565 -4.8; 596 -4.8; 630 -4.9; 665 -5.1; 703 -5.3; 743 -5.6; 784 -5.9; 829 -6.3; 875 -6.5; 924 -6.5; 977 -6.2; 1032 -5.9; 1090 -5.7; 1151 -5.7; 1216 -5.9; 1284 -6.1; 1357 -6.1; 1433 -5.8; 1514 -5.4; 1599 -5.1; 1689 -4.8; 1784 -4.9; 1885 -4.8; 1991 -4.6; 2103 -4.3; 2221 -3.9; 2347 -3.5; 2479 -3.2; 2618 -3.2; 2766 -3.3; 2921 -3.6; 3086 -3.6; 3260 -2.9; 3443 -1.6; 3637 -0.2; 3842 -0.6; 4058 -2.1; 4287 -3.6; 4528 -5.0; 4783 -6.4; 5052 -7.8; 5337 -8.9; 5637 -9.8; 5955 -11.3; 6290 -12.4; 6644 -11.4; 7018 -10.0; 7414 -9.6; 7831 -9.6; 8272 -9.4; 8738 -9.0; 9230 -8.6; 9749 -8.4; 10298 -8.4; 10878 -8.5; 11490 -8.8; 12137 -9.1; 12821 -9.4; 13543 -9.8; 14305 -10.3; 15110 -10.8; 15961 -11.4; 16860 -12.1; 17809 -12.8; 18812 -13.5; 19871 -14.4

My advice, you don't need a pre-amp gain with these settings, OP. It even says so on the github page, it's already accounted for.

Edit: I tested it out. Sub-bass suffers a bit, you can raise 20 - 70Hz by 5db. Mids are good, the correction is nice. Highs are a bit too flat or my taste. What's causing your pain is most likely the 6300hz spike. Pull that down further an up the rest a bit.
 

zermak

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@audiofilet Actually the OP is using the Parametric EQ in the first post (where he thinks the curve does not look like Oratory's one), then in post #4 he goes for the GraphicEQ which it is a worse solution (resolution wise) but does the job done anyway.
ParametricEQ is the preferred solution if you don't have the FIR available (which solves phase issues also if I recall but I may be wrong) or you don't know how to make one and you can use more resolution to have fine tuning of the curves but usually 16/32K is fine (for example that GraphicEQ you posted has only 127 points, the 48kHz FIR is usually 100ms/4800 samples).
 
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