DSD playback

[ZolaIII]

This I experience subjectively. Audirvana's DSD to PCM conversion as well as Foobar2000 SACD plugin has audible artifacts unfortunately when using my Schiit Bifrost 2 DAC and my display monitor speakers. DoP using Chord Mojo is played perfectly without any audible distortion/artifacts.

DoP is actually something else;
https://dsd-guide.com/dop-open-standard#.XkjuPezTU0M
Not a conversion back to PCM. I didn't talk about software/driver's problems either. Well I never told it's "audible distortion" but never the less it's there. However listening experience is auditable different is what that scientific experiment concluded (duble blind A-B test). I can hear it & I like it.
By the way very funny that 705.6 KHz audio takes a hit on memory consumption.

 

[dshreter]

Well pulse dense modulation introduces some distortion as frequency increase & brings back some "physicality" which is actually evoluted as plesent and judged as better in reacent study.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...igh-resolution-recordings-in-pcm-and-dsd.152/
They are not interchangeable, when you convert back to PCM it sounds horrible.
@MC_RME well at least on Android it's not stable especially for DSD.

That study seems pretty flawed if the thread commentary carried any validity.

 

[beanxinh]

Thank guys that clear up a lot for me .

This I experience subjectively. Audirvana's DSD to PCM conversion as well as Foobar2000 SACD plugin has audible artifacts unfortunately when using my Schiit Bifrost 2 DAC and my display monitor speakers. DoP using Chord Mojo is played perfectly without any audible distortion/artifacts.

Can you elaborate more about the artifacts? I listen to a lot DSF file when sitting in office using the apple dongle with rose Masya (that may not high end enough) and can't notify any differences compare with using the Tempotec Sonata HD Pro . I just a little bit obsess with tech specs so I want to find something better and have more power .

 

[majingotan]

Thank guys that clear up a lot for me .

Can you elaborate more about the artifacts? I listen to a lot DSF file when sitting in office using the apple dongle with rose Masya (that may not high end enough) and can't notify any differences compare with using the Tempotec Sonata HD Pro . I just a little bit obsess with tech specs so I want to find something better and have more power .

What I meant by artifacts is audible noise floor with some clicking noises while playing back dsf files. I tried converting the DSD64 dsf file to 24/88.2 Flac through Foobar2000 then play that converted file but the results are the same audible distortion and noise

 

[MC_RME]

Can you provide a link to such a file that causes problems when converted back to PCM? Also: this only happens when using the Shiit? What happens when you convert to PCM and play back via the Chord? Technically I am sure there are no issues with DSD to PCM conversion, until the source is proper and the conversion done correctly. And that isn't hard.

 

[majingotan]

Can you provide a link to such a file that causes problems when converted back to PCM? Also: this only happens when using the Shiit? What happens when you convert to PCM and play back via the Chord? Technically I am sure there are no issues with DSD to PCM conversion, until the source is proper and the conversion done correctly. And that isn't hard.

Any original DSD64 Files has this issue for me. I tested the converted PCM file and found that it's not DAC dependent (as audible distortions are both present on Schiit and Chord using the converted file) but depends on the filter settings for conversion as I just found out recently. I was using the default "Direct 30 KHz low pass filter" for conversion, but using "Installable FIR (64fp)" fixed the issue when that PCM converted file is played back on Audirvana. Well, looks like Audirvana uses similar filtering as SACD default plug-in from Foobar2000.

Interesting note that someone has performed different filter test already and had the same issue with me with DSD64 files converted to PCM.
https://archimago.blogspot.com/2015/04/analysis-dsd-to-pcm-2015-foobar-sacd.html

 

[MC_RME]

So to summarize: using a wrong filter is just that - wrong. DSD to PCM conversion works and the result is audibly identical. In fact with the right filter it is even measured as identical within the extended (in-)audible range (HD). This is especially true when using the DSD to PCM conversion that is part of most DAC chips (to support on-chip volume control).

 

[majingotan]

So to summarize: using a wrong filter is just that - wrong. DSD to PCM conversion works and the result is audibly identical. In fact with the right filter it is even measured as identical within the extended (in-)audible range (HD).

Yep. Hence I don't really have any DSD on my library other than iFi samplers or Oppo DSD samplers as it's just a larger sized digital data without any real audible benefits compared to PCM especially both formats are lossless and have dynamic range and frequency response beyond human hearing anyways

 

[MC_RME]

In fact I don't know anyone that has a large collection of DSD material other than the stuff available for free in the web. We offer DSD recording and playback because we can - but leave it to the customers if they find it useful or not...

 

[Tom C]

I like SACD’s for their multichannel capability, and there are a few titles that are otherwise unavailable. I rip discs to files using the PC + Blu-ray player method, which works with reasonable ease. I generally listen to DSD converted by my player (JRiver) to PCM, which works with any DAC I know of. I have a setup that will play native DSD, without conversion to PCM, but I cannot tell the difference between that and DSD to PCM conversion. Playing native DSD requires changing the settings on the player, so it’s a little awkward switching between playing native PCM files and playing DSD on the same playlist. It’s just not worth the hassle.
DoP was developed in the early days of DSD playback, specifically to enable a method that would work with existing equipment. It still requires the DAC to be capable of native DSD playback, and is not a conversion to PCM. Instead, it gives a DSD bit stream over a PCM pipeline.
There are few recordings available that have never been converted to PCM. On the production side, equalization, editing, and processing cannot be done with a DSD file. The file must first be converted to PCM, processed, then reconverted back to DSD for final sale and distribution. So, even if the file was originally recorded in DSD, the only way to then distribute it without ever converting to PCM, then reconverting to DSD, is to do zero post processing. Such recordings exist, but they are less common and more difficult to find. And they may not be the recordings you wish to buy and listen to.
So don’t worry. Be happy.

 

[Vincent Kars]

When playing DSD you do have to filter, that is part of the standard.
The reason is the high amount of quantization noise generated by DSD.

As long as you send "native" DSD to a DAC, the DAC will recognize it and apply the filter needed.
If you convert DSD to PCM yourself, you're the one who should apply this filter as the DAC now receives PCM instead of DSD and won't apply the DSD filtering by itself.
If you don't, you are bombarding your system with a substantial amount of high frequencies.
Small wonder it sounds "different".........

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Playing native DSD requires changing the settings on the player, so it’s a little awkward switching between playing native PCM files and playing DSD on the same playlist. It’s just not worth the hassle.

???? What player? Jriver has no problems with doing that without human intervention. Roon, too, afaik.

 

[Tom C]

JRiver. I’ve never used Roon. As I recall, the output had to be set to bitstream, with DSD as the designated output. Which meant that to play, say, native FLAC, the designated output would have to be changed to PCM. Alternatively, you could leave DSD as the designated output, but then JRiver would convert the FLAC to DSD, and output the file as DSD. I think there is at least one other configuration that would work. I certainly don’t know all the ins and outs of JRiver, so maybe there are options I’m not aware of. Because after listening a little, and not being able to appreciate the difference, I stopped spending any additional time investigating.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

JRiver. I’ve never used Roon. As I recall, the output had to be set to bitstream, with DSD as the designated output.

That is why you are having such issues. This way imposes DSD output on all formats.

Which meant that to play, say, native FLAC, the designated output would have to be changed to PCM. Alternatively, you could leave DSD as the designated output, but then JRiver would convert the FLAC to DSD, and output the file as DSD.

Exactly.

I always (almost always) leave "None" in the output encoding box on the DSP page but I also enable Bitstreaming DSD in the Audio page above it. This will play everything in native PCM (FLAC) except DSD.

I think there is at least one other configuration that would work. I certainly don’t know all the ins and outs of JRiver, so maybe there are options I’m not aware of. Because after listening a little, and not being able to appreciate the difference, I stopped spending any additional time investigating.

Now you know.

 

[Tom C]

The "None" check box on the DSP page I found easily enough. The menu item directly above is for Audio Device. Under Device Settings I can select DSD bitstream in DoP format. With those two changes, I still get PCM out when playing a DSF file.
Under Settings, two items below DSP & output format, Bitstreaming is currently set to none. When I change that to DSD, my player shows its receiving a DSD signal, but I lose the internal volume control. Is that what you meant, or am I still missing something?
I'm using Media Center version 26.0.22, 64-bit version on Win 10, to Sabaj D5 with manufacturer's ASIO driver.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

The menu item directly above is for Audio Device.

Not the menu item above but the page above, i.e., the one you clicked through to get where you are.

Under Settings, two items below DSP & output format, Bitstreaming is currently set to none.

Exactly.

When I change that to DSD, my player shows its receiving a DSD signal, but I lose the internal volume control. Is that what you meant, or am I still missing something?

Have you ever gotten volume control in DSD with JRiver? If you do, it would be a surprise to me.

I use native DSP (not DoP) and control volume in my DAC so I cannot be certain of your situation.

 

[Tom C]

On my version there is no page above, all of those are on the first page (Audio). I kind of like the internal volume option, which JRiver recommends on their Wiki page because of the digital headroom it gives for volume levels less than 0 dB. No, I’ve never had internal volume work with DSD.
So, I can see where JRiver can be configured to go back and forth between DSD and PCM without having to manually change the settings. Thank you for the clarification.
I guess the point I was originally trying to make is that if a player app is used to convert DSD to PCM for a DAC without native DSD support, there is no appreciable loss of sound quality. JRiver’s position is that the conversion will be bit perfect, with zero loss of fidelity, if the DAC is able to accept a 352.8 KHz bit rate (that is, for DSDx1).

 

[Kal Rubinson]

On my version there is no page above, all of those are on the first page (Audio). I kind of like the internal volume option, which JRiver recommends on their Wiki page because of the digital headroom it gives for volume levels less than 0 dB. No, I’ve never had internal volume work with DSD.

Same here. OTOH, I can use Jriver's internal volume control to operate the volume control in my exaSound DAC in PCM and in DSD but that requires a proprietary driver from exaSound.

So, I can see where JRiver can be configured to go back and forth between DSD and PCM without having to manually change the settings. Thank you for the clarification.

You are welcome.

I guess the point I was originally trying to make is that if a player app is used to convert DSD to PCM for a DAC without native DSD support, there is no appreciable loss of sound quality. JRiver’s position is that the conversion will be bit perfect, with zero loss of fidelity, if the DAC is able to accept a 352.8 KHz bit rate (that is, for DSDx1).

Understood that there may be "zero loss of fidelity" but it is hard to say that the conversion is "bit perfect" since the bits in PCM and DSD are different.

 

[MC_RME]

Fully agree. I have great respect for the JRiver team so had a quick look at their DSD Wiki:

Quote: The total amount of data from this conversion grows by 8x, so the process is effectively lossless / perfect.

Source: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DSD

So unless Tom C can provide a link to JRiver's 'bit perfect conversion position' I don't believe they ever said that.

 

[JohnYang1997]

It's almost impossible to have lossless DSD to PCM conversion.

If you want it to be lossless/"bitperfect", you have to prove that the same DSD file can be obtained by doing a DSD-PCM conversion followed by a PCM-DSD conversion.

Then there's difference in the actual DAC processing PCM and DSD. DSD direct will likely to have lower IMD. Where there maybe SNR benefit from PCM. The output of DAC will never be the same. However perceptual difference may be negligible.