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DSD Performance Criteria

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Audicron

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Why is there no measurement of DSD performance criteria in the DAC reviews of devices that are DSD capable?
 
Because those interested in objective performance tend to be aware that their speakers, headphones, and listening rooms are the largest sources of distortion, and DSD makes you unable to fix it effectively.

Hence, there is not a lot of interest and therefore, little incentive for Amir to add it to his suite.
 
staticV3 said:
Because those interested in objective performance tend to be aware that their speakers, headphones, and listening rooms are the largest sources of distortion, and DSD makes you unable to fix it effectively.
Click to expand...
It is part of the objective assessment... irrespective of the dogma of any given user... No? "Fixing" is a subjective decision... some folks don't care or need to fix their listening environment or do so otherwise, not intrinsic to digital manipulation wether or not they are PCM-centric or DSD-centric... Is an inherent PCM bias in the measurements, solely based on the criteria, you propose? That would seem inconsistent with providing objective assessments in the DAC platform performance potentials...

(Irrespective of my personal objective and subjective rationalizations to modulate PCM to DSD...)
I can apply room-correction, etc, DSP to my PCM files prior to modulation to DSD256... . If your answer is representative of the measurement dogma, how does this play into the advancement of the science or define a use case where DSP is applied, as in my case where I do apply DSP to my PCM files and subsequent of the processing, modulate all PCM signals to DSD256...?
 
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Audicron said:
II can apply room-correction, etc, DSP to my PCM files prior to modulation to DSD256... . If your answer is representative of the measurement dogma, how does this play into the advancement of the science or define a use case where DSP is applied, as in my case where I do apply DSP to my PCM files and subsequent of the processing, modulate all PCM signals to DSD256...?
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Therein lies the problem. Your modulator is an integral part of the signal chain and it affects the audio output (e.g. modulator order, noise shaping, volume level used for the conversion, etc.). Somebody else's measurements won't tell you a whole lot if the test signals aren't created using the same modulator and parameters as yours.

There is no standard DSD test signals AFAIK. So one person's tests will very likely see different results from another person's tests of the same device, making the information not very useful as you can't compare.
 
As far as I have seen, it's gear specific, here's a silly index:


www.audiosciencereview.com

PCM vs DSD

Did a little comparison and I was wondering if any friend with better gear here has tested this. Results you're about to see is probably narrowed to the specific DAC but it's interesting to see how it handles things differently. I will not try to decipher the results other that DSD seems much...
www.audiosciencereview.com www.audiosciencereview.com

As with all gear, it's down to how it's done probably.
Multitone analyzer has a perfect DSD generator build-in, you can test for yourself.
 
NTK said:
Therein lies the problem. Your modulator is an integral part of the signal chain and it affects the audio output (e.g. modulator order, noise shaping, volume level used for the conversion, etc.)
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This is not the problem, because this same scenario applies to digital DSP done prior to being presented as LPCM to a DAC... but you still measure the DAC...
NTK said:
There is no standard DSD test signals AFAIK. So one person's tests will very likely see different results from another person's tests of the same device, making the information not very useful as you can't compare.
Click to expand...
How do DAC engineers measure the 1-bit PDM performance of their filters, etc, and provide objective data for design considerations...? I think there may be test methodology used as a basis for DSD design implementations... How does the DAC platform architecture understand what to do with a 1-bit PDM signal? I will look around and ask DSD-centric DAC design engineers about this... I was hoping here to get more insight from this group...
drewdawg999 said:
I happen to be interested in it but it's not common for members here.
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This is the fundamental bias that is driving the measurement dogma... If there is no interest in DSD playback, it would then appear, that the measurement dogma is codified and there is no point that makes sense to that certainty... It is a shame, but it is what it is... Thanks for the answers.
 
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Audicron said:
This is the fundamental bias that is driving the measurement dogma... If there is no interest in DSD playback, it would then appear, that the measurement dogma is codified and there is no point that makes sense to that certainty... It is a shame, but it is what it is... Thanks for the answers.
Click to expand...
drewdawg999 said:
I happen to be interested in it but it's not common for members here.
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I can't square this circle. dredawg999 says he's interested but most members aren't, and Audicron interpreted that as "there is no interest [...] dogma is codified"?

"I don't have a lot of clothes"
"I guess you are naked all the time them"

That said, anyone curious about DSD should watch the Amir video linked above.
 
RexrothPigeon said:
I can't square this circle. dredawg999 says he's interested but most members aren't, and Audicron interpreted that as "there is no interest [...] dogma is codified"?

"I don't have a lot of clothes"
"I guess you are naked all the time them"

That said, anyone curious about DSD should watch the Amir video linked above.
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And this is the obvious response... So, don't let it get to you if you don't take the question seriously in context... Anyone serious about DSD will do more research and gather more insights beyond the video linked above... The video is what it is, but is this video the defining arbiter regarding the rationale for DSD encoding and playback of DSD recordings...? Oh, wait, this would have to be judged subjectively...Ugggh!
 
Audicron said:
This is not the problem, because this same scenario applies to digital DSP done prior to being presented as LPCM to a DAC... but you still measure the DAC...

How do DAC engineers measure the 1-bit PDM performance of their filters, etc, and provide objective data for design considerations...? I think there may be test methodology used as a basis for DSD design implementations... How does the DAC platform architecture understand what to do with a 1-bit PDM signal? I will look around and ask DSD-centric DAC design engineers about this... I was hoping here to get more insight from this group...

This is the fundamental bias that is driving the measurement dogma... If there is no interest in DSD playback, it would then appear, that the measurement dogma is codified and there is no point that makes sense to that certainty... It is a shame, but it is what it is... Thanks for the answers.
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At the link I posted above you can see that is fairly easy and there's lots of info from members about it.
What's far more interesting though is the comparison of volume control effects (if and where are applicable to DSD, not all can do VC )

In general, and as far as I have seen at other DACs I measured, no big differences arise, certainly not ones I would definitely say are audible if both PCM and DSD are decently done (unlike the DUT of the thread which does terrible at PCM and better at DSD )
 
Audicron said:
Why is there no measurement of DSD performance criteria in the DAC reviews of devices that are DSD capable?
Click to expand...
Yes, ASR does have a testing bias - Amir and others test what is sent to them, or they purchase. This limits what gets reviewed. In order to test as many things as possible, Amir has to minimise the time taken up with testing any particular device, which he does through automation where possible.

Perhaps you can help? Maybe you could perform DSD testing on behalf of ASR?
 
Audicron said:
This is not the problem, because this same scenario applies to digital DSP done prior to being presented as LPCM to a DAC... but you still measure the DAC...

How do DAC engineers measure the 1-bit PDM performance of their filters, etc, and provide objective data for design considerations...? I think there may be test methodology used as a basis for DSD design implementations... How does the DAC platform architecture understand what to do with a 1-bit PDM signal? I will look around and ask DSD-centric DAC design engineers about this... I was hoping here to get more insight from this group...

This is the fundamental bias that is driving the measurement dogma... If there is no interest in DSD playback, it would then appear, that the measurement dogma is codified and there is no point that makes sense to that certainty... It is a shame, but it is what it is... Thanks for the answers.
Click to expand...
The problem is how do you get that "1 bit signal"? Here are just the list of options of modulators in HQPlayer (and there are more options for other settings). Which one do you use to generate that 1-bit signal for the test? If you use a different one, are the test results still relevant?

The sampling theorem determines what the LPCM samples are. These "1-bit signals" are half processed intermediaries somewhere in the middle of one particular type of DAC (ΣΔ conversion) processing chain. Whatever happens before that point and after that point will both affect the final results.

1778676411533.png
 
NTK said:
The problem is how do you get that "1 bit signal"? Here are just the list of options of modulators in HQPlayer (and there are more options for other settings). Which one do you use to generate that 1-bit signal for the test? If you use a different one, are the test results still relevant?
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This.

Here is a test I did elsewhere comparing HPQ with 7EC modulator and Tascam’s HiRes Editor software. A PCM file was converted to DSD by both pieces of software and compared. Here are the results - very clear that HQP is not a transparent conversion:


DSD Comparison.jpg
 
It appears there is a methodology to objectively measure the DSD performance of a DAC platform... This is an overview of a series of several measurements of DSD performance in a TEAC UD-501 DAC... I'm sure this approach can be refined if there is desire... I believe Archimago has taken deeper objective measurements regarding DSD performance, so it seems this could be implemented in the ASR evaluation process so to provide more information in support of the premise of the objective measurements provided to inform the target audience.
 
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Audicron said:
so it seems this could be implemented in the ASR evaluation process so to provide more information in support of the premise of the objective measurements provided to inform the target audience.
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Excellent! I'm looking forward to your test results.
 
Daverz said:
The DSD format should have been abandoned years ago. It's become just an another annoying audiophile fetish. It's right and proper to ignore support for it as a misfeature in modern DACs.
Click to expand...
And what do you think the DSD content recording engineers and content producers will say to this...? What a myopic definition of "Audiophile".
 
MaxwellsEq said:
Excellent! I'm looking forward to your test results.
Click to expand...
Of course the sarcasm.... I don't have the means like those available to ASR reviewers, otherwise I would not have posed the contextual question.... :rolleyes:
 
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