DSD genuine improvement or marketing tool?

[amirm]

Your strategy with your clients is yours to do as you wish. In this forum, we like to eek out reliable data so that there is solid scientific/engineering basis to rely upon. I would hope that you are interested in such approach. If so then much better controlled testing needs to exist. See an example of type of formal analysis we need to do in order to trust the results: http://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/statistics-of-abx-testing.170/

 

[Mivera]

Your strategy with your clients is yours to do as you wish. In this forum, we like to eek out reliable data so that there is solid scientific/engineering basis to rely upon. I would hope that you are interested in such approach. If so then much better controlled testing needs to exist. See an example of type of formal analysis we need to do in order to trust the results: http://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/statistics-of-abx-testing.170/

That type of testing would be better done at somewhere like the local audio club you're a member of. Maybe you could organize an event like that.

If you end up buying that Mark Levinson DAC/Pre unit, are you going to resample your DSD to PCM?

I'm not sure how you can prove that something's better when it's all based on subjective tastes. Hqplayer has 15 different oversampling filters, and 7 different modulators to choose from. Which one is preferred depends on the gear used and personal taste.

 

[amirm]

That type of testing would be better done at somewhere like the local audio club you're a member of. Maybe you could organize an event like that.

It is not an important todo item for me to do that.

If you end up buying that Mark Levinson DAC/Pre unit, are you going to resample your DSD to PCM?

I do that today using Roon's resampler and sounds superb. So I will likely do that there too to be able to continue to use my Room EQ.

I'm not sure how you can prove that something's better when it's all based on subjective tastes. Hqplayer has 15 different oversampling filters, and 7 different modulators to choose from. Which one is preferred depends on the gear used and personal taste.

Before we worry about taste, we have to worry whether people can tell the difference at all. My experience is that even when there are audible differences, vast majority of people are not sensitive enough to them to hear such.

 

[Mivera]

It is not an important todo item for me to do that.


I do that today using Roon's resampler and sounds superb. So I will likely do that there too to be able to continue to use my Room EQ.


Before we worry about taste, we have to worry whether people can tell the difference at all. My experience is that even when there are audible differences, vast majority of people are not sensitive enough to them to hear such.

So you think every filter setting in Hqplayer doesn't do a single thing? It's all a complete hoax, and people only continue using it after the free trial because the GUI is so rudimentary?

Are you skeptical of the oversampling algorithms that all modern SDM DAC's use as well? Or any DAC that uses an FPGA or DSP chip for oversampling filters?

 

[amirm]

So you think every filter setting in Hqplayer doesn't do a single thing? It's all a complete hoax, and people only continue using it after the free trial because the GUI is so rudimentary?

I don't know if they do or do not anything. What I do know is that citing even a million anecdotal listening results is still without value in the eye of science. Put another way, I would not bet a dime of my own money that they are right or wrong. It simply is not data that has validity.

Are you skeptical of the oversampling algorithms that all modern SDM DAC's use as well? Or any DAC that uses an FPGA or DSP chip for oversampling filters?

If they output equal levels and have the same frequency response, then yes, I am very dubious that any of the results you mention are valid.

I have tested countless audiophiles. Vast majority who say they hear such differences, can't distinguish between an MP3 at high bit rate and original. That distortion is orders of magnitudes higher yet people cannot hear them in bias controlled tests. So I have to start with the position of disbelief until demonstrated otherwise.

 

[Mivera]

I don't know if they do or do not anything. What I do know is that citing even a million anecdotal listening results is still without value in the eye of science. Put another way, I would not bet a dime of my own money that they are right or wrong. It simply is not data that has validity.


If they output equal levels and have the same frequency response, then yes, I am very dubious that any of the results you mention are valid.

I have tested countless audiophiles. Vast majority who say they hear such differences, can't distinguish between an MP3 at high bit rate and original. That distortion is orders of magnitudes higher yet people cannot hear them in bias controlled tests. So I have to start with the position of disbelief until demonstrated otherwise.

Since a DAC like the $1000 Oppo 105 has pretty much perfect measured specs, why would you not go for something like that over the $15000 ML 526 DAC/Pre? In listening tests like you describe, I'm sure nobody would ever hear a difference.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

Since a DAC like the $1000 Oppo 105 has pretty much perfect measured specs, why would you not go for something like that over the $15000 ML 526 DAC/Pre? In listening tests like you describe, I'm sure nobody would ever hear a difference.

Well a $15 Timex tells time as good or better than a $15k Patek or Rolex. Which would you rather own?

 

[amirm]

I use my equipment for many things. One is listening test. One is as a reference when testing other products.

Since a DAC like the $1000 Oppo 105 has pretty much perfect measured specs, why would you not go for something like that over the $15000 ML 526 DAC/Pre? In listening tests like you describe, I'm sure nobody would ever hear a difference.

I have the Oppo. Use it for watching movies. It does not have analog input for my tape deck so I can't use it as a pre.

My current DAC has served me for 15 years. I bought a good product and it has lasted me that long. That is how I look at my next purchase. I like to have reference quality hardware to compare to other equipment I am testing. And have assurances that the product I have is transparent enough for the type of testing I do. I also have pride in what I buy and pay for that. In other words my decisions in audio are more than just whether something passed ABX test or not.

It is a truism that we lack blind listening test results for vast majority of what we want to buy or own. The fallback position then is to seek superb engineering. On that front, I can show that in what I own. Here is jitter rejection for example: http://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...s/a-deep-dive-into-hdmi-audio-performance.56/

Look at how great my ancient Mark Levinson DAC was at rejecting jitter (bigger negative numbers are better). Can I hear that difference? I don't know but do know that it is one less thing to worry about relative to the devices close to the top.

 

[Mivera]

Well a $15 Timex tells time as good or better than a $15k Patek or Rolex. Which would you rather own?

Well I don't think Amir is so superficial that he's simply buying it for status.

 

[Purité Audio]

Quartz Timex far more accurate of course.
Keith

 

[Mivera]

I use my equipment for many things. One is listening test. One is as a reference when testing other products.

I have the Oppo. Use it for watching movies. It does not have analog input for my tape deck so I can't use it as a pre.

My current DAC has served me for 15 years. I bought a good product and it has lasted me that long. That is how I look at my next purchase. I like to have reference quality hardware to compare to other equipment I am testing. And have assurances that the product I have is transparent enough for the type of testing I do. I also have pride in what I buy and pay for that. In other words my decisions in audio are more than just whether something passed ABX test or not.

It is a truism that we lack blind listening test results for vast majority of what we want to buy or own. The fallback position then is to seek superb engineering. On that front, I can show that in what I own. Here is jitter rejection for example: http://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...s/a-deep-dive-into-hdmi-audio-performance.56/

Look at how great my ancient Mark Levinson DAC was at rejecting jitter (bigger negative numbers are better). Can I hear that difference? I don't know but do know that it is one less thing to worry about relative to the devices close to the top.

Did you test the Oppo? If the Oppo measures the same are you simply paying the extra $14000 for the analog preamp section? Surely you can get a great measuring preamp for under $1000

 

[amirm]

I am not paying $14,000 . And again, the Oppo does not work as a pre-amp for me (i.e. accept other analog input). So it is not a consideration.

 

[TBone]

Since a DAC like the $1000 Oppo 105 has pretty much perfect measured specs, why would you not go for something like that over the $15000 ML 526 DAC/Pre? In listening tests like you describe, I'm sure nobody would ever hear a difference.

There was a day, not long ago ... I'd use BR calibration to optimize my HDTVs. Did this for a few years, but I was never really satisfied. Tweak'd it near forever. My issue wasn't so much colour related, but sharpness/artifacts. No matter what I did, the issues remained. Talk about ear fatigue, this was visually tiring, Anyway, one day, surfing the net for info, encountered an "industry expert" ranting the same issue, but his focus was on the blu-ray players, not the software, hdmi or hdtv. He tested nearly every available br player (then) inc.measurements, and ONLY the Oppo's passed this particular test. It was a revelation for me ... I stopped using the Panny as the tool, and cab'd the tv "natively". That did the trick ... no remote desire to tweak it further.

Don't own an Oppo, but much respect.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

Well I don't think Amir is so superficial that he's simply buying it for status.

What is "superficial" about buying a luxury item? Are you kidding me?
There is absolutely nothing wrong with buying a $15k watch, wedding ring or DAC if you so please.
Just don't make any ridiculous objective claim....and there is nothing to argue about purely subjective preference.

 

[Mivera]

I am not paying $14,000 . And again, the Oppo does not work as a pre-amp for me (i.e. accept other analog input). So it is not a consideration.

Why not something like this? It has analog inputs and stellar measurements. And no compromised DSD capability to deal with.

http://emotiva.com/products/dacs/electronics/dacs/stealth-dc-1

 

[Mivera]

What is "superficial" about buying a luxury item? Are you kidding me?
There is absolutely nothing wrong with buying a $15k watch, wedding ring or DAC if you so please.
Just don't make any ridiculous objective claim....and there is nothing to argue about purely subjective preference.

I know amir will never admit it, but at the end of the day he does use his ears when listening to his system

 

[Mivera]

There was a day, not long ago ... I'd use BR calibration to optimize my HDTVs. Did this for a few years, but I was never really satisfied. Tweak'd it near forever. My issue wasn't so much colour related, but sharpness/artifacts. No matter what I did, the issues remained. Talk about ear fatigue, this was visually tiring, Anyway, one day, surfing the net for info, encountered an "industry expert" ranting the same issue, but his focus was on the blu-ray players, not the software, hdmi or hdtv. He tested nearly every available br player (then) inc.measurements, and ONLY the Oppo's passed this particular test. It was a revelation for me ... I stopped using the Panny as the tool, and cab'd the tv "natively". That did the trick ... no remote desire to tweak it further.

Don't own an Oppo, but much respect.

I was thinking of buying one at one point for blurays, but I never buy movies, Netflix always has more than I ever need to watch.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

I know amir will never admit it, but at the end of the day he does use his ears when listening to his system

We all do...along with our eyes and brains, which contain knowledge, memory, preferences and biases.
Appearance and belief matters. Look no further than Harmans sighted vs blind evals. No one is immune.

 

[JoeWhip]

As for the Rolex vs. the Timex, it depends on your preference. If you want something that keeps very accurate time, go with the Timex. Personally, I have no watches. The phone works just fine. If you want a fine piece of jewelry that keeps fairly accurate time, get the Rolex. Shall I say a person very close to me has one, it looks real nice but is a bit of a PITA. I am not a bling guy, which explains some of my audio and video purchases.

 

[JoeWhip]

I have an Oppo 95. It is a fabulous Blu-ray player. As a former reviewer, I have a ton of them. Gee, I even have quite a few HD-DVDs. When I eventually get an OLED to replace my Kuro, I may have to get a 4K player. Probably not an Oppo though. I would rather get a streamer box of some type. Of course, I may have to up my internet speed to take advantage of 4K streaming.