Dry bass

[ppataki]

THANK YOU! I did a search for the "Pultec-punch" and came across a few resources, including this thread on ASR where you contributed. I am trying to wrap my head around exactly what it is and how it works. I think the easiest way to try it out is to download that Puigtec plugin before I try to simulate it in Acourate. Please give me a day or two to digest this information because it seems confusing and counterintuitive to me.

You are welcome

A few more notes on this:

- the Puigtec plugin is a great start, it mimics the original hardware's behaviour but it won't allow you to set the Q value (the amount of resonance). You will only have the default settings. If you try this plugin I recommend setting the Frequency to 20Hz and then do the boosting

- additionally to the Puigtec plugin, just try an all-purpose EQ, like the one I showed above (that is the T-Racks EQual but others such as CraveEQ, GrandEQ, FabFilter Pro-Q, etc. would be great too) and try fiddling around with the curve as I mentioned above. For example set the Frequency to 75Hz then apply a boost of 6dB and then play around with the Q (or Resonance) value to hear the difference it will make. If the plugin has steepness control (dB/octave) then try a 24dB/octave value (=4th order)

 

[Bjorn]

Your bass is not really "dry" when looking at the waterfall. Quite the contrary, there are a lot of resonances and ringing. This steals impact and tactile feeling big time.
Not saying that's the only reason though. I miss better graphs and would like to look at a mdata file and that's conducted also without "room correction". Correcting for dips and peaks with EQ is also something that can remove bass weight.

 

[Hayabusa]

Strange that you couldn't get the same result with EQ in Dirac which essentially is the same.

you can't set filters with different Q (read: resonance) in dirac

 

[sigbergaudio]

You seem to have some REW measurements based on one of the screenshots. Could you show 20-200hz unsmoothed and 20-20,000hz with 1/6 or 1/12th smoothing of your current response?

Y-axis 45-105dB

You could also consider taking measurements at both head and stomach height and averaging these, sometimes they're quite different in the bass range.

 

[Geert]

Now THAT is an interesting insight! I have never heard of this,

Because it's incorrect.

 

[raif71]

dry bass

 

[Keith_W]

You are welcome

A few more notes on this:

- the Puigtec plugin is a great start, it mimics the original hardware's behaviour but it won't allow you to set the Q value (the amount of resonance). You will only have the default settings. If you try this plugin I recommend setting the Frequency to 20Hz and then do the boosting

- additionally to the Puigtec plugin, just try an all-purpose EQ, like the one I showed above (that is the T-Racks EQual but others such as CraveEQ, GrandEQ, FabFilter Pro-Q, etc. would be great too) and try fiddling around with the curve as I mentioned above. For example set the Frequency to 75Hz then apply a boost of 6dB and then play around with the Q (or Resonance) value to hear the difference it will make. If the plugin has steepness control (dB/octave) then try a 24dB/octave value (=4th order)

I downloaded and I am listening to the Puigtec plugin now. It doesn't seem to work on JRiver, there is no audible change to the sound when turning the plugin on/off, and the VU Meter in the plugin stays at zero. I read the manual and it offers no additional insights.

I think I will download and try another plugin.

 

[bluefuzz]

I'd be looking for a response more like this:

 

[ppataki]

I downloaded and I am listening to the Puigtec plugin now. It doesn't seem to work on JRiver, there is no audible change to the sound when turning the plugin on/off, and the VU Meter in the plugin stays at zero. I read the manual and it offers no additional insights.

I think I will download and try another plugin.

In Jriver you have to use DDMF Metaplugin for Waves plugins to work fine

 

[Deleted member 48726]

you can't set filters with different Q (read: resonance) in dirac

So? You want the response corrected to your curve. Who cares what Q dirac uses to correct it..

 

[dweeeeb2]

I came across this somewhere. I have no idea if its correct:

 

[Sokel]

I'd be looking for a response more like this:

View attachment 333042

This chart is not an FR,it's the RT60,people must have been confused by it.

One can see the FR roughly in the waterfall posted but other than that none.

What I suspect (and I know nothing about the rig) is that is a 2-way with subs and as most of them suffers in mid-bass.
Most of the people complaining about impact,tactile feeling,etc have similar rigs.

 

[Geert]

I came across this somewhere. I have no idea if its correct:

It's pretty good as a starting point.

The bass does not sound impactful or physical, it's just ... there. For context, I have 4x 12" Rythmik sub drivers built into two subwoofers, crossed over at 80Hz, with DSP provided by Acourate. If I turn the subs louder, it sounds unbalanced and there is way too much bass (but strangely, it still seems to lack punch)

Physical bass is to be found below 60Hz, but punch is more around 80Hz. That might be why turning up the level of the sub doesn't bring improvement.

If the main speakers allow for it, I would test with a lower crossover frequency to see what happens. Let the main speakers provide the punch, and have the subs fill in the physical sub bass.

(What our your main speakers)?

 

[mcdn]

This chart is not an FR,it's the RT60,people must have been confused by it.

One can see the FR roughly in the waterfall posted but other than that none.

What I suspect (and I know nothing about the rig) is that is a 2-way with subs and as most of them suffers in mid-bass.
Most of the people complaining about impact,tactile feeling,etc have similar rigs.

It’s got a dB scale on the right and looks a heck of a lot like an FR. it also looks a lot like the kind of FR that would give bad sounding bass. it’d be ridiculous to talk about bass without posting an FR, surely?

 

[Sokel]

It’s got a dB scale on the right and looks a heck of a lot like an FR. it also looks a lot like the kind of FR that would give bad sounding bass. it’d be ridiculous to talk about bass without posting an FR, surely?

It does,but it's an 100db scale which makes it almost meaningful,it's far more evident in the waterfall chart.
A 50db scale 10-200Hz would be far better.

 

[mcdn]

It does,but it's an 100db scale which makes it almost meaningful,it's far more evident in the waterfall chart.
A 50db scale 10-200Hz would be far better.

50dB would be better. I do like seeing the full range though, psychoacoustics is strange and broad changed higher in frequency can influence perception of lower frequencies. And besides, if issues show up on a 100dB scale then they are big issues…

 

[Sokel]

I can only offer an observation about it.
ALL the speakers I have heard that can do create impact and chest punch are 3-ways with at least a 10" driver low,crossed between 200-500Hz (ATC 100 can cut your breath for example and it's crossed at 500Hz I think (edit,380Hz) )

On the other hand small 2 ways (less than 6'5" mid) with subs can sure rumble and give fat bass or deep,or,or,but not the slam.

And that's regardless of rooms,positioning,etc,I have seen horror stories with speakers placed at the worst possible conditions but had this slam nevertheless.
It's not a room thing,it's a speaker thing.

 

[Keith_W]

What I suspect (and I know nothing about the rig) is that is a 2-way with subs and as most of them suffers in mid-bass.
Most of the people complaining about impact,tactile feeling,etc have similar rigs.

Physical bass is to be found below 60Hz, but punch is more around 80Hz. That might be why turning up the level of the sub doesn't bring improvement.

If the main speakers allow for it, I would test with a lower crossover frequency to see what happens. Let the main speakers provide the punch, and have the subs fill in the physical sub bass.

(What our your main speakers)?

It's a 3 way with the following crossover points: 80, 500, 4000. It started life as a passive speaker, but has been converted to active with a DSP crossover created by Acourate. The woofer has also been replaced with a driver manufactured by Lorantz in Melbourne. I knew I was going to be using it with subs, so I wanted it to be linear between 50Hz - 800Hz, which is roughly half an octave above and below the crossover points for the bandpass. These are the measurements for the woofer:

The trade-off is that the woofers are very insensitive compared to the horn and the tweeter, so I am volume limited by the woofer. So yes, I could go for a lower XO point. As you can see, the woofer rolls off quickly at 45Hz.

It’s got a dB scale on the right and looks a heck of a lot like an FR. it also looks a lot like the kind of FR that would give bad sounding bass. it’d be ridiculous to talk about bass without posting an FR, surely?

Here you go.

@ppataki I downloaded and installed the UAD Pultec EQ. I don't think I have dialled it in properly yet. There is also a huge increase in volume, with the same volume setting, my SPL meter registers that the VST makes it 10dB louder (!!!). When I dial the volume back, I think there is an overall moderate improvement. The midrange punch is pretty amazing, but I still haven't improved the bass punch. I need to read that manual a bit more and fiddle with the settings to dial it in. It also seems to introduce quite a lot of reverb, but if I dial back the reverb I also lose the punch.

Now I need to think about how I am going to implement your suggestion in Acourate. I still don't understand how it works, all I know is that the UAD plugin works.

 

[Sokel]

It's a 3 way with the following crossover points: 80, 500, 4000. It started life as a passive speaker, but has been converted to active with a DSP crossover created by Acourate. The woofer has also been replaced with a driver manufactured by Lorantz in Melbourne. I knew I was going to be using it with subs, so I wanted it to be linear between 50Hz - 800Hz, which is roughly half an octave above and below the crossover points for the bandpass. These are the measurements for the woofer:

View attachment 333125

The trade-off is that the woofers are very insensitive compared to the horn and the tweeter, so I am volume limited by the woofer. So yes, I could go for a lower XO point. As you can see, the woofer rolls off quickly at 45Hz.



Here you go.

View attachment 333128

@ppataki I downloaded and installed the UAD Pultec EQ. I don't think I have dialled it in properly yet. There is also a huge increase in volume, with the same volume setting, my SPL meter registers that the VST makes it 10dB louder (!!!). When I dial the volume back, I think there is an overall moderate improvement. The midrange punch is pretty amazing, but I still haven't improved the bass punch. I need to read that manual a bit more and fiddle with the settings to dial it in. It also seems to introduce quite a lot of reverb, but if I dial back the reverb I also lose the punch.

Now I need to think about how I am going to implement your suggestion in Acourate. I still don't understand how it works, all I know is that the UAD plugin works.

Lower mids seems like it's connected on the opposite right on the 500Hz x-over point,it's huge.
Are you sure you have connected the drivers the right way?

 

[ppataki]

@ppataki I downloaded and installed the UAD Pultec EQ.

ah OK, sorry; I thought that you would download the Waves plugin
The UAD plugin is supposed to be even better actually

Now I need to think about how I am going to implement your suggestion in Acourate. I still don't understand how it works, all I know is that the UAD plugin works.

I am not familiar with Acourate but essentially you would just need to add a boosting low shelf filter with Freq = 75Hz with a Q value bigger than 1 (try Q=1 then Q=1.2 then Q=1.41, etc.)
and listen how it sounds (it should change the bass perception considerably). Boost shall be up to taste but I would start with 6dB
And needless to say you can also play around with the frequency (try 80Hz, 85Hz, 90Hz, etc.)
You will see it is pretty fun and you can customize your bass sound literally in an unlimited fashion