Dr. Toole's 4th Edition Book is Coming! (Discount)

[TurtlePaul]

Is there a way to get this book on the latest gen (epaper) Amazon Kindle?

I get "device not supported" for both third and fourth editions.

 

[Floyd Toole]

Is there a way to get this book on the latest gen (epaper) Amazon Kindle?

I get "device not supported" for both third and fourth editions.

I have no explanation. When I go on amazon.com or amazon.ca (I'm in Canada now) I see Kindle editions available.

 

[TurtlePaul]

I have no explanation. When I go on amazon.com or amazon.ca (I'm in Canada now) I see Kindle editions available.

It appears to be for the “Fire” (LCD) Kindles and not the base Kindles. I think I will get it in paperback.

 

[Floyd Toole]

It appears to be for the “Fire” (LCD) Kindles and not the base Kindles. I think I will get it in paperback.

Thanks for the update - I wasn't aware of the distinction. I use a base Kindle for pleasure reading, but much prefer paper books for technical stuff - but I'm old

 

[MStan]

I just bought the 4th edition (my first) and it is an engrossing read and a revelation for me.

Since I am in the process of recalibrating my 4 subwoofers, I was stunned (and not a little embarrassed) to read the section on stereo bass/subwoofers which warns against using discrete left and right signals for subwoofers to achieve stereo bass instead of summed mono. For years I had been running my SWARM subwoofers (4 x 10" ported subs) in stereo mode sending discrete left and right signals into the LFE input of each sub amp. While the four subs have been very beneficial I have never been completely satisfied. I thought, well, maybe 10" ported subs aren't up to the task plus I have never measured or EQd the subs so I started that process. So when I read about the warning on stereo bass I immediately opened up the laptop, remoted into my HTPC and changed the signals going to the subs to summed mono. After level matching with the mains it was an immediate improvement. Bass was richer, tighter, the soundfield wider and more 3D-like; amazingly, imaging has returned where it was largely absent. All this without even measuring or EQing the subs. Needless to say I look forward to the measurement/EQ process. I think, though, that I will first have to add a couple of amplifiers and modify the Swarm subs to be controlled independently as they are currently wired in series and can only operate in pairs.

Anyway, a very big thank you to Drs. Toole and Olive and Mr. Welti.

 

[sigbergaudio]

@MStan You will find lots of people having the exact same revelation as you after switching from mono to stereo subs.

 

[nathan]

I just bought the 4th edition (my first) and it is an engrossing read and a revelation for me.

Since I am in the process of recalibrating my 4 subwoofers, I was stunned (and not a little embarrassed) to read the section on stereo bass/subwoofers which warns against using discrete left and right signals for subwoofers to achieve stereo bass instead of summed mono. For years I had been running my SWARM subwoofers (4 x 10" ported subs) in stereo mode sending discrete left and right signals into the LFE input of each sub amp. While the four subs have been very beneficial I have never been completely satisfied. I thought, well, maybe 10" ported subs aren't up to the task plus I have never measured or EQd the subs so I started that process. So when I read about the warning on stereo bass I immediately opened up the laptop, remoted into my HTPC and changed the signals going to the subs to summed mono. After level matching with the mains it was an immediate improvement. Bass was richer, tighter, the soundfield wider and more 3D-like; amazingly, imaging has returned where it was largely absent. All this without even measuring or EQing the subs. Needless to say I look forward to the measurement/EQ process. I think, though, that I will first have to add a couple of amplifiers and modify the Swarm subs to be controlled independently as they are currently wired in series and can only operate in pairs.

Anyway, a very big thank you to Drs. Toole and Olive and Mr. Welti.

@MStan You will find lots of people having the exact same revelation as you after switching from mono to stereo subs.

Only in sighted listening tests….

 

[sigbergaudio]

Only in sighted listening tests….

Which I assume the above was as well.

 

[MStan]

Yes, mine was a sighted reaction. I am well aware of the bias and may have exaggerated a bit. But the change was so obvious that I don't think I need a blind test and, in any case, I am hardly able to do that. This is why I will be measuring.

 

[nathan]

Which I assume the above was as well.

Sorry I misread your post and thought you were suggesting stereo subs works well.

 

[Neddy]

Just bought the e-book, or better, I bought "a license to use the e-book". This DRM is absolutely atrocious. No PDF download (but they allow my to print it in 2-pages increments with a giant watermark across each page!), no ePub download, access only through their app (no Linux version obviously). Hopefully, I will scrap it before the 5-year period of "online" access ends.

And it requires creating new accounts on three different platforms - Publisher, Vital Source, and their reader app...on each device you want to read it on...and then you only have limited rights to read it? If this weren't such a significant book for me, I'd be dropping them all like flies.
Agree atrocious...so we need to install a new reader app for every publisher who's book we buy? That's the publishers solution for DRM? That's nuts. And no, not going with Amazon or Kindle, either.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Sorry I misread your post and thought you were suggesting stereo subs works well.

Well, they can do. Just speakers without subs often work relatively well, and they are stereo bass. So it's not like everything falls apart with stereo subs.

 

[nathan]

And it requires creating new accounts on three different platforms - Publisher, Vital Source, and their reader app...on each device you want to read it on...and then you only have limited rights to read it? If this weren't such a significant book for me, I'd be dropping them all like flies.
Agree atrocious...so we need to install a new reader app for every publisher who's book we buy? That's the publishers solution for DRM? That's nuts. And no, not going with Amazon or Kindle, either.

Yes, made all the more annoying by the fact that the print book is not a great solution, either.

It has a layout and binding which makes much of the text fall in the crack of the binding and requires two hands to wrestle to keep the book open.

I mean, I get it, specialist publishing is a low margin business but I'd happily pay a few dollars more for a book that can lay flat, open, on my desk, without me holding it with two hands. Bonus, if the white space was near the gutter and not near the edges, increasing reading accessibility as well.

The great promise (among others) of eReaders was that accessibility would be improved (text size can be adjusted, leading can be adjusted, font can be adjusted, contrast can be adjusted, color temp can be adjusted -- all by the reader themselves to meet their needs).

But if draconian DRM & other impediments are in place (locks keep honest people out; dishonest people are unthwarted) *and* the printed version lacks readability for people with diminished visual capability, that's just an unfortunate (and I hope, unintentional) bit of gatekeeping.

 

[MStan]

Well, they can do. Just speakers without subs often work relatively well, and they are stereo bass. So it's not like everything falls apart with stereo subs.

Do you want relatively well or optimal? I want optimal and that means multiple subs regardless of the capabilities of the mains. Actually, in my case, I now think running the subs in stereo mode was doing some harm. As Toole, et al point out there is also an efficiency aspect to this. Optimally arranged subs may very well be more efficient and cheaper; think smaller subs using less power and no big expensive full range towers. Perhaps better overall sound too.

 

[nathan]

Actually, in my case, I now think running the subs in stereo mode was doing some harm.

That makes sense.

Typically the placement of the mains are NOT the ideal locations for interaction with room modes.

And using a summed mono signal means you can effectively have active bass control (mode cancellation; getting rid of dips).

 

[krabapple]

And it requires creating new accounts on three different platforms - Publisher, Vital Source, and their reader app...on each device you want to read it on...and then you only have limited rights to read it? If this weren't such a significant book for me, I'd be dropping them all like flies.
Agree atrocious...so we need to install a new reader app for every publisher who's book we buy? That's the publishers solution for DRM? That's nuts. And no, not going with Amazon or Kindle, either.

Why not? I bought the Kindle edition. No fuss no muss, you just buy it and it's available on any of your devices that run the free Kindle app. I don't need a print edition, actually prefer the search function of e-books for a technical reference like this.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Do you want relatively well or optimal? I want optimal and that means multiple subs regardless of the capabilities of the mains. Actually, in my case, I now think running the subs in stereo mode was doing some harm. As Toole, et al point out there is also an efficiency aspect to this. Optimally arranged subs may very well be more efficient and cheaper; think smaller subs using less power and no big expensive full range towers. Perhaps better overall sound too.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing, it's just interesting given that we have 50 page long threads on this forum about the opposite being true (stereo subs being the way to go). And as you mentioned your description of the change was a bit over the top, which is why I replied initially. Soundstage and imaging doesn't fall apart with stereo subs.

 

[krabapple]

Wouldn't the output level of an individual sub in mono pair would tend to be higher than the same sub in a stereo pair?

If so, couldn't that alone spark a perception of 'better', when switching from stereo to mono?

 

[nathan]

Wouldn't the output level of an individual sub in mono pair would tend to be higher than the same sub in a stereo pair?

If so, couldn't that alone spark a perception of 'better', when switching from stereo to mono?

Off topic for this thread but yes, it could. On the other hand, it can do just the opposite since reducing peaks (modal peaks) is one result of using multiple subs set up correctly (as described in the book this thread is about, aka, back on topic) and many listeners experience a lack of peaks as a lowering of output. The phenomena of someone hearing accurate bass without room modes for the first time and thinking there is something wrong because the bass is so quiet (until it's not).

I'm not necessarily disagreeing, it's just interesting given that we have 50 page long threads on this forum about the opposite being true (stereo subs being the way to go). And as you mentioned your description of the change was a bit over the top, which is why I replied initially. Soundstage and imaging doesn't fall apart with stereo subs.

They can, but they don't necessarily do so, true.

But the odds are stacked against stereo subs working better than mono subs.

At the risk of continuing off topic, I'll mention that, IIRC, this video shows the real world measured impacts of the concept of stereo subs, placing subs near the mains and having just that channel in the sub for the main it is closest to, etc. I'm not offering this as definitive proof, just an easier version than reading through the AES papers that get into the science of it (eg, Welti's papers).

 

[suttondesign]

I just bought the 4th edition (my first) and it is an engrossing read and a revelation for me.

Since I am in the process of recalibrating my 4 subwoofers, I was stunned (and not a little embarrassed) to read the section on stereo bass/subwoofers which warns against using discrete left and right signals for subwoofers to achieve stereo bass instead of summed mono. For years I had been running my SWARM subwoofers (4 x 10" ported subs) in stereo mode sending discrete left and right signals into the LFE input of each sub amp.

uh-oh. me too. this is news to me. i run two 10” dual-opposed subs in stereo. I feed them from two minidsp plate amps, one left, one right. is that what i need to change?