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Dr Olive is not happy with how Dolby Atmos is mixed

iGude

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The former will only be 'right', and the latter 'wrong', when center-less Atmos album releases proportionally swamp the numbers of DVD-V, DVD-A , SACD and 5.1 BluRay releases that have come out since 2000. Those really do tend to populate the center channel.
The notion that the center channel was used in line with our and Dr. Olive’s expectation after 2000, and that this has changed only now with Atmos is illogical and incorrect:

„In the arena of surround sound mixing, there is probably no area that prompts more debate than the use (or abuse) of the center channel. […] For these reasons, most surround sound music mixers treat the center channel with caution, rarely if ever using it to carry any mix components exclusively. Instead, those instruments routed to the center channel [….] are also generally routed to other speakers as well.“

Excerpt from the Recommendations For Surround Sound Production from The Recording Academy‘s Producers & Engineers Wing, published in 2004.
 

krabapple

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The notion that the center channel was used in line with our and Dr. Olive’s expectation after 2000, and that this has changed only now with Atmos is illogical and incorrect:

„In the arena of surround sound mixing, there is probably no area that prompts more debate than the use (or abuse) of the center channel. […] For these reasons, most surround sound music mixers treat the center channel with caution, rarely if ever using it to carry any mix components exclusively. Instead, those instruments routed to the center channel [….] are also generally routed to other speakers as well.“

Excerpt from the Recommendations For Surround Sound Production from The Recording Academy‘s Producers & Engineers Wing, published in 2004.
Your initial premise --and Sean's initial reports re: Atmos -- was that the center speaker is 'hardly used in music recordings'. Which is not what your 2004 document says.

And NB again: the benefits of center channel versus a phantom center are still realized if C content is shared in other channels. This argues against NOT using the center at all.

It's illuminating to quote *more* of your source. I will add emphasis and notes:

"[the C channel's] primary function is to provide hard center anchoring for key components (such as dialog in film postproduction, or lead vocals or solo instruments in music applications) with greater stability than phantom centering, and without any of the comb filtering problems that occur with phantom centers. [as noted by me before and above]

However, too much reliance on the center channel alone can be problematic due to the fact that the center speaker in many home theater systems is smaller than the main left and right speakers. As a result, signals routed to the center channel alone can be severely compromised in terms of their frequency spectrum during playback. [The age of the text shows here. In 2004 it may have been that center channel speakers were routinely far more bandwidth-limited than front left and right-- though that was not true of my setup even then. And since then?] (Some consumer surround sound systems don't provide a center speaker at all [another dated observation] ; however, most consumer receivers provide an option to route center channel information at equal level to the left and right speakers if no center speaker is connected.)

Another problem stems from the fact that most playback systems — even the most rudimentary consumer systems — allow each channel to be heard in isolation. Placing a lead vocal "naked" in the center channel, without other instrumentation to help mask poorly intonated notes, "auto-tuning" glitches, or bad drop-ins, can therefore potentially expose weaknesses in a performance and consequently incur the wrath of the recording artist and record label. [This is a concern I mentioned already, early on in debating you; it does not preclude use of the C, it simply notes that the vocals might not be *unaccompanied* in the C -- though sometimes they in fact are]

For these reasons, most surround sound music mixers treat the center channel with caution, rarely if ever using it to carry any mix components exclusively. Instead, those instruments routed to the center channel (most often lead vocal, bass, snare drum, kick drum and/or instrument solos) are also generally routed to other speakers as well. [this is vague, and the situation actually varies quite a bit. This can mean e.g., that the center might indeed carry *only* vocals/lead, but that they are also present in L/R -- meaning it's still easy for a user to 'solo' the vocals/lead; or it can mean that the center carries vocals + other elements, variously shared or not with L/R; or it can mean center simply duplicates all L/R content; it of course also means that 'rarely', the C may be the only channel carrying lead vocal/instrument. Finally it can also mean any of these uses, varying from track to track on the same release. See * below for examples from my collection] Placing selected instruments in the center channel and one or both front speakers helps emphasize their sound within the front wall and also aids in localization if the listener moves around the room. Conversely, creating a virtual triangle by placing selected instruments in the center channel and one or both rear speakers can yield an interesting psychoacoustic effect where the sound appears to come out into the room, closer to the listener. However, care must be taken to decorrelate such signals in each speaker (most often, by slightly altering equalization, delay times or pitch — see section 4.7); otherwise, masking and/or phase cancellation problems can occur

NB in the examples below, and in the many discs I do *not* include because the C simply duplicates front channel content, the center obviously *is used*. There were a very few cases where the C content was extremely low-level, but typically not. Where the C is *not used at all* -- completely silent or missing -- it's when the sources were 4 channel masters. As I said before.


*Examples -- reported from a single track except as noted:
on 'Blonde on Blonde' (2003 SACD), lead vocals are overwhelmingly in the center, faintly present in front L/R, sounding like bleed-through, while the band is shared across front L/R/C;
contrast to Blood On the Tracks (2004 SACD), which simply duplicates L/R content in the C, vocals and all, at a lower level;
Britney Spears In the Zone (2004 DVD-A) has instrumental C content that is sometimes shared in L/R, sometimes exclusive to C ;
Caravan In the Land of Grey and Pink (2011 DVD) the C contains only lead vocal, but that vocal is also shared in L/R
Chicago Chicago II (2003 DVD-A) C contains only vocals and bass, or bass and lead guitar; shared with L/R;
David Bowie Ziggy Stardust (2003 SACD) , C contains only vocals, which are also shared; ditto Heathen (2002 SACD)
Elton John Goodbye Yellow Brick Road (2003 SACD), C contains only vocals, which are also shared; ditto other early 70s EJ SACDs
ELP Brain Salad Surgery (2000 DVD-A) bass and vocals are much stronger in C than other channels, though this varies by track
Gentle Giant Free Hand (2021 BluRay) vocals and some instrumental parts in C ; fainter share in L/R
Genesis The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway (2007 SACD) C contains main vocal, shared in L/R; ditto other Genesis
King Crimson In the Court of the Crimson King (2009 DVD-A) mainly vocals in C, faintly shared in L/R; on the later BluRay remix (2019), louder in L/.R than before
King Crimson Discipline ( 2011 DVD-A) vocals in C, very faintly shared in L/R
Led Zeppelin How the West Was Won (2003 DVD-A ) C contains 'dry' vocals, and band; L/R contain 'wet'
Miles Davis Kind of Blue (2002 SACD) trumpet is loudest in C, with band backing; fainter in L/R
Neil Young Harvest (2002 DVD-A) This one is all over the place. On several tracks the C shares vocals mainly with rear L/R.
NIN Downward Spiral (2004 DualDisc) C content usually shared with L/R, but sometimes contains unique content
Peter Gabriel Up (2003 SACD) mainly vocal in C, shared in L/R
Pink Floyd Meddle (2016 DVD-A) mainly vocal in C, shared in L/R
Pink Floyd Animals (2022 BluRay) C only contains instruments shared with L/R, no vocals
Queen Night at the Opera (2002 DVD-A) C contains vocal,bass, drums only, shared with L/R
Robert Fripp Exposure (2016 DVD-A) C contains vocal only; shared with L/R
Rush Fly By Night (2011 DVD-A) vocal is the most prominent element in C, shared with L/R; ditto other Rush releases
Steely Dan Gaucho (2003 SACD, DVD-A) C contains vocal, bass, drums only, shared on L/R; ditto other Steely Dan releases
Steven Wilson The Raven Who Refused to Sing (2013 BluRay) vocals predominantly in C , faintly in L/R; C also contains some unique musical elements
T. Rex Electric Warrior (2004 DVD-A) C contains only vocal; shared with L/R
Talking Heads Speaking In Tongues (2006 DualDisc) C shares everything *except* bass
The Beatles Sgt Pepper's (2017 BluRay) vocals predominantly in C, shares some other instruments *except* bass
The Beatles White Album (2018 BluRay) vocals predominantly in C
The Beatles Abbey Road (2019 BluRay) vocals predominantly in C (on 'Come Together' they are almost exclusively in C, extremely faint in L/R)
Flaming Lips Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots (2003 DVD-A) C often contains just vocals, which are shared with L/R; also contains effects, musical parts
Jimi Hen drix Expereience Electric Ladyland (2018 BluRay) C often contains just vocals, which are shared with L/R
The Who Tommy (2004 DVD-A) C often contains just vocals, which are shared with L/R
The Who Quadrophenia (2014 BluRay) C contains 'dry' vocals, L/R have 'wet'
Van Morrison Moondance (2013 BluRay) C contains 'dry' vocals and lead instruments, L/R have 'wet'
XTC Oranges & Lemons ( 2015 DVD-A) C contains main vocal, fainter in L/R
Yes Fragile (2015 BluRay) C is mostly lead vocals, shared with L/R
Yes Close to the Edge (2013 BluRay) C contains main vocals and some instrumental, very faintly shared in L/R
Yes Tales from Topographic Oceans (2016 BluRay) C contains all sorts of things, variously shared or not. Often carries dry lead vocal, but rarely if ever bass
Yes Relayer (2017 Bluray) C carries vocals and lead instruments , often shared, sometimes not, rarely if ever bass






Discs where major Center content is not shared with front L/R channels, on at least some tracks
lead vocals backed with certain instruments on Bob Marley Legend (2014 BluRay)
lead vocal on ELP Emerson, Lake & Palmer, Tarkus (2012 DVD-A), Trilogy (2015 DVD-A)
trumpet on Miles Davis In A Silent Way (2002 SACD)
vocals and other elements on Tears for Fears Songs from the Big Chair (2014 BluRay)
vocals on Allman Brothers Live at the Fillmore East (2014 BluRay)
vocals and lead instruments on Yes The Yes Album (2014 BluRay)
vocal on Beatles Abbey Road (2019 BluRay, see above)
vocal on Neil Young, Harvest (2002 DVD-A, see above)
 

iGude

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Your initial premise --and Sean's initial reports re: Atmos -- was that the center speaker is 'hardly used in music recordings'. Which is not what your 2004 document says.

And NB again: the benefits of center channel versus a phantom center are still realized if C content is shared in other channels. This argues against NOT using the center at all.
The quote from Dr. Olive, that started the thread, refers to the known benefits of a center channel (no acoustic crosstalk, better speech intelligibility and stable localization no matter where you sit).

These benefits are gone or greatly diminished when the center content is divided upon other channels. Hence, in context of this thread, recordings with center content being shared with other channels count as bad examples, i.e they don’t count at all.

The majority of recordings that you have listed fall into this category, and both old and new mixing guidelines recommend exactly this. Hence, we are back to square one:
The center channel is hardly used as expected by Dr. Olive - and me and many others - and with above mentioned benefits. This is also the reason why Dr. Olive disagrees with you.

And this is the case since the upcoming of multichannel music recordings, as shown.
 

Newman

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@Sean Olive has posted on FB some Atmos mixing guidelines that caution against using stereo methods in the new paradigm, with his comment, “I bought two books on Mixing Dolby ATMOS in Protools and Logic Pro written by Edgar Rothermich who has 20 years of mixing experience and is an adjunct professor at Loyola Marymount in LA. Edgar is a graduate of the prestigious Berlin Insitite of Technology Tonmeister program where they train recording engineers in music, science and technology.

“The best advice I’ve read on ATMOS mixing so far is on page 100 where he says, "Leave your stereo mixing techniques behind". Amen.

“He says avoid using stereo objects and the size parameter for objects as it creates phantom images by sending the object to multiple speakers and destroys the spatial precision. A phantom center does essentially the same thing. German Tonmeisters are the best
.”

IMG_1255.jpeg


Cheers
 

Newman

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There are certain risks associated with allowing public comments on your FB page, LOL.
 

Newman

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I have also noticed the repeated use by Dr Olive of the word ATMOS in ALLCAPS, so I thought maybe that’s how Dolby means it to be written, in which case I will do it too. I also thought maybe it’s an acronym.

So I looked on the Dolby website. They write it as Atmos. So that’s how I will write it. And I assume it’s not an acronym but simply a reference to ‘atmospheric’ sound.

cheers
 
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