Dr. Klaus Heinz of HEDD Audio (ex ADAM Audio) - measuring speakers, in particular speaker dynamics

[DDF]

Are you sure he is not talking about DAC filters there?

"This is why I would prefer 64 kHz sampling. With that sampling rate, there is no such mechanism available. Even 50khz would probably suffice.

None the less, we are stuck at 44.1, see above, and that's how it is. I admit that for most sources, 44.1 should not be an issue, either. "

He was talking about pre-ringing audibility in general during a conversation about DAC filters

 

[andreasmaaan]

@j_j, the most experienced pshycho-acoustician (is that even a word?) here weighed in on it earlier:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...n-audio-does-it-matter.11/page-22#post-104672

"Note: There are potential filter issues with pre-ringing, MAYBE. One can propose a plausible mechanism, but nobody, EVER, yet, has actually demonstrated it cleanly. The issues are due to the nonlinearity of the EAR and the minimum-phase issues of the ear."

See also my question here and JJ's answer here.

 

[Kvalsvoll]

@Kvalsvoll , you define «dynamics» as «transient reproduction», «sense of power and realism and immediacy of attack on drums and all other sorts of percussive instruments».

So I wondered, what are your experiences with compression horn (F2) vs other tweeter designs, say dome tweeter? And sensitivity; any thoughts on sensitivity (of speaker) vs «transient reproduction»?

For HF, the situation is different from low freq in that the initial transient peak at the listening position is not what determines how loud or powerful a transient sound appears like. A horn can give a sound-field with much less loss at distance, and at the same time much less sound into surfaces close to the speaker, this gives a sound with louder late reflections, because the high freqs are louder when they reach the back of the room. This is what gives the impression of louder transient peaks. Imagine you clap you hands in a dead space - it will not sound loud at all. Then do the same in a bathroom - loud, powerful sound.

Horns are not equal, the radiation pattern of the horn is determined by its shape, and different profiles can have very different sound. The F2 uses AMT drivers, not CD, but since it is the horn radiation pattern that determines the sound, the differences in horn profiles will be more important than choice of driver type.

Compared to different types of horn profiles and horn driver combinations, all dome tweeters sound the same, more or less. Yes, there are differences, but for reasonably good domes, they present a radiation pattern that is more similar than different, and the character of the sound they present is more or less the same.

Sensitivity in itself has no correlation to transient response.

 

[svart-hvitt]

For HF, the situation is different from low freq in that the initial transient peak at the listening position is not what determines how loud or powerful a transient sound appears like. A horn can give a sound-field with much less loss at distance, and at the same time much less sound into surfaces close to the speaker, this gives a sound with louder late reflections, because the high freqs are louder when they reach the back of the room. This is what gives the impression of louder transient peaks. Imagine you clap you hands in a dead space - it will not sound loud at all. Then do the same in a bathroom - loud, powerful sound.

Horns are not equal, the radiation pattern of the horn is determined by its shape, and different profiles can have very different sound. The F2 uses AMT drivers, not CD, but since it is the horn radiation pattern that determines the sound, the differences in horn profiles will be more important than choice of driver type.

Compared to different types of horn profiles and horn driver combinations, all dome tweeters sound the same, more or less. Yes, there are differences, but for reasonably good domes, they present a radiation pattern that is more similar than different, and the character of the sound they present is more or less the same.

Sensitivity in itself has no correlation to transient response.

Thanks!

I wonder though if your note on sensitivity and transient response is too simple. If you have very high sensitivity, transients will be produced with low distortion. Absence of distortion may add to the perception of transients, «attack» etc., wouldn’t you think?

Or do you believe power (big amplifier) is a substitute for sensitivity?

 

[Kvalsvoll]

Thanks!

I wonder though if your note on sensitivity and transient response is too simple. If you have very high sensitivity, transients will be produced with low distortion. Absence of distortion may add to the perception of transients, «attack» etc., wouldn’t you think?

Or do you believe power (big amplifier) is a substitute for sensitivity?

For ordinary dynamic drivers (the ones with a cone, voice coil and magnet) it is believed by many that a lighter cone and stronger magnet gives a more dynamic sound. They sound "faster", more alive. It so happens that those properties also gives increased sensitivity. Looking at the physics, a lighter cone and more powerful motor (higher Bl) will give more spl capacity and less power compression. The magnet pole piece is usually better saturated, which gives better linearity at high current input. So they have more capacity because efficiency is better, and also because they can utilize more power because the magnet-voice coil system can handle larger currents before nonlinearities become too large.

The worst case is the typical subwoofer driver with very long excursion, limited cone area and heavy moving mass. As you try to push more current through, the Bl starts to decrease and voice coil inductance rises.

A motor design which can handle larger currents, has a more linear inductance, better heat capacity and cooling, will handle more power and thus can give good performance even if the moving mass is a little high. Modern (pro) drivers are designed for very high power handling, and this actually means moving mass will be quite high due to the size of the voice coil.

 

[Krunok]

See also my question here and JJ's answer here.

So the ammount of pre and post ringing is related to the number of taps used in a filter?

 

[Krunok]

The worst case is the typical subwoofer driver with very long excursion, limited cone area and heavy moving mass. As you try to push more current through, the Bl starts to decrease and voice coil inductance rises.

This would be an argument to use few smaller drivers instead of a single large one, right?

 

[Krunok]

He was talking about pre-ringing audibility in general during a conversation about DAC filters

But DAC filters don't show pre and post ringing. They show ringing alike pattern like any other banwidth limited system which cannot correctly re-create step pattern. That is a completely different phenomena..

 

[andreasmaaan]

So the ammount of pre and post ringing is related to the number of taps used in a filter?

No, I should asked the question more carefully in that thread. Longer tap lengths allow for longer-ringing filters, but the length and amplitude of the ringing is a function of the filter itself.

 

[Krunok]

No, I should asked the question more carefully in that thread. Longer tap lengths allow for longer-ringing filters, but the length and amplitude of the ringing is a function of the filter itself.

That makes sense.

What exact property (shape) of the filter would cause more ringing? In other words, how exactly to design filters to avoid/reduce ringing?

 

[svart-hvitt]

For ordinary dynamic drivers (the ones with a cone, voice coil and magnet) it is believed by many that a lighter cone and stronger magnet gives a more dynamic sound. They sound "faster", more alive. It so happens that those properties also gives increased sensitivity. Looking at the physics, a lighter cone and more powerful motor (higher Bl) will give more spl capacity and less power compression. The magnet pole piece is usually better saturated, which gives better linearity at high current input. So they have more capacity because efficiency is better, and also because they can utilize more power because the magnet-voice coil system can handle larger currents before nonlinearities become too large.

The worst case is the typical subwoofer driver with very long excursion, limited cone area and heavy moving mass. As you try to push more current through, the Bl starts to decrease and voice coil inductance rises.

A motor design which can handle larger currents, has a more linear inductance, better heat capacity and cooling, will handle more power and thus can give good performance even if the moving mass is a little high. Modern (pro) drivers are designed for very high power handling, and this actually means moving mass will be quite high due to the size of the voice coil.

Thanks again, @Kvalsvoll !

It seems like radiation pattern is a factor that not so many people focus on even if it determines quite a bit of the perceived sound.

Even on ASR, there are hundreds of threads on DACs, but none (?) on radiation patterns.

 

[SIY]

Thanks again, @Kvalsvoll !

It seems like radiation pattern is a factor that not so many people focus on even if it determines quite a bit of the perceived sound.

Even on ASR, there are hundreds of threads on DACs, but none (?) on radiation patterns.

But radiation patterns/dispersion/polar patterns are part and parcel of every single discussion of loudspeakers, as well it should be- it is absolutely a top-level determinant of sound. So maybe it's just the varying terminology that's the problem?

Other issue is that there's not many of us with AP-grade acoustic measurement capability, so reviews of speakers and mikes don't appear often here. I do, but my speaker and mike reviews appear elsewhere. And most commentary is on Amir's reviews, which are heavily slanted toward DACs.

 

[Krunok]

But radiation patterns/dispersion/polar patterns are part and parcel of every single discussion of loudspeakers, as well it should be- it is absolutely a top-level determinant of sound. So maybe it's just the varying terminology that's the problem?

Exactly.. All those terms, including directivity, spinorama, etc., are about the same thing which has been discussed in detail as it is perceived as maybe the most important thing when it comes to loudspeaker SQ.

 

[Krunok]

If you have very high sensitivity, transients will be produced with low distortion.

Is that really so..? I wasn't aware of such simple relation between sensitivity and distortion. Can you qoute some sources that confirm this statement?

 

[svart-hvitt]

Is that really so..? I wasn't aware of such simple relation between sensitivity and distortion. Can you qoute some sources that confirm this statement?

Let me answer with a more interesting question:

Is power (of amplifier) a substitute of sensitivity?

Yes, or no?

And for the sake of discussion: Why is that?

 

[SIY]

Is that a simple yes or no question? Or is it a "no universal answer" question trying to be forced into that particular binary?

 

[svart-hvitt]

Is that a simple yes or no question? Or is it a "no universal answer" question trying to be forced into that particular binary?

Maybe the discussion is better than a clear answer?

I am here to learn and ask stupid questions

 

[Krunok]

Let me answer with a more interesting question:

Is power (of amplifier) a substitute of sensitivity?

Yes, or no?

And for the sake of discussion: Why is that?

The way I see it, as you made a claim you should be the one proving that claim, but you cannot do that with a question.

 

[Krunok]

Maybe the discussion is better than a clear answer?

I am here to learn and ask stupid questions

No problem, but making claims you cannot prove is not a good way of learning.

 

[svart-hvitt]

The way I see it, as you made a claim you should be the one proving that claim, but you cannot do that with a question.

My claim on high sensitivity-high dynamic with low distortion is what you often counter among very experienced DIY speaker builders. So it’s hearsay, but not of the naive audiophool kind.

Why is it that some speaker designers prefer high sensitivity drivers?