• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Dr. Edgar Choueiri explains BACCH

From a consumer point of view you could say the same for BACCH, since it's a mathematical model of which apparently we have not much objective data in public domain to see how it performs in practice (obviously it does not mean that they are missing at the source or that they are not excellent results... only that here it is inappropriate to firmly argue only theoretically, omitting the relative weak points)
One can have his point of view regarding XTC, nothing wrong given how the matter is technically.
What is a bit bothering here is trying to make BACCH understand as a "proof", but without numbers related to real world scenario to know its effectiveness and preferability.
Here at ASR, we should talk about it with the concrete facts we have, not just starting from the assumption that it is scientific and therefore it is always justified to use.
It is surely a remarkable piece of engineering, which undoubtedly provide a very good result in most of the cases, and most undoubtedly objective better performance in xtc, but that also cost a lot (relatively).
I would like to make some clarifications to avoid that some messages are misinterpreted due to lack of contextualization, insinuations of others, or simply my bad wording in English (I also edited for appropriate clarity).

There is apparently unanimous recognition of the fact that XTCs in general can provide an objective and subjective result, depending on the fidelity paradigm adopted.

As far as BACCH is concerned, it is clearly based on a effective and ingenious mathematical model, which has in turn been confirmed with extensive scientific tests by research institute. No one doubt about this. Nor that it provides a more 3D perception than the system without it.

What we consumers lack apparently (but if this is not the case the forum should serve to help us in this sense) and which therefore makes it impossible for us to generalize, draw unambiguous conclusions and make bold or presumptuous statements (what makes me react), are the objective data that show in the practice, on a representative number of real cases, how effective/dependent the objective result is, and how statistically preferable the subjective one is (so my aforementioned comment).
Surely the R&D tests have been conducted and we could surely make the assumption that they are reasonably good given the seriousness and the validity of the technical information shared, nothing wrong. Some comments here also seem to confirm this.
But ASR is the place where objective elements/criteria of judgment are sought, precisely to dispel the uncertainty/relativity of subjectivity, which we know how distorting the world of consumer audio.
Discussing a product so evidently the result of scientific research, without scientific data, only create confusion.

Obviously we cannot hope or expect that there will always be a third party that does this work for free (like ASR) nor that the developers of the technology can show all the results of every kind of test related to real world scenarios.

So the most reasonable thing to do, in my opinion, is to make consideration related to the theory and the practical world, as I tried to do, but where, however, there will be no consensus regarding what it is. And in any case it makes no sense to oust niches in fact, I admit.
So the only thing that remains is to recognize the fact we are all rotating around a spherical matter and that every subjective opinion or fact that we report in this discussion, if not extremely well contextualized, will serve no purpose other than to increase entropy and therefore to deform the sphere, in favor of contrasts and polarizations and apparently biased messages.

In a science forum we should effectively try to be objective and balanced, as far as possible for people in flesh and blood (and emotions). It's for interest of all. Unfortunately not always easy, especially when someone else starts not being. As far I'm concerned I'm sorry for this.

I hope it is a discourse that can be shared by everyone.

That said, I invite all the enthusiasts to look for the personally most reasonable path to reach the own goal of enjoyment, that is the ultimate essence of audio world. Soon I hope to try XTC on my system too.

EDIT: My epilogue
 
Last edited:
Sanders 10E
Nice. I love electrostats.
And i think the 10E's flat panels are particularly well suited for both BAACH's crosstalk cancellation, and head-tracking integration.

I use constant directivity conical horns, unity/synergy, in my main system. Also have some full range stats running.
I may have to spring for the u-BAACH plugin... just out of sheer curiosity, and see how it would work for the different systems.....and a basic joy for all kinds of different audio experiences.
 
By that standard all imaging with multitrack recordings is an effect
My take is, if the recording was made multitrack for a certain speaker setup, and reproduced with same multitrack speaker setup, then it's certainly not an effect.
If the multitrack is a result of stereo upmixing, yada yada, then for sure...it's an effect.
Just like I still see BAACH being... (again, with no disparagement at all intended with use of term effect.)
FX, plugins, etc...all are effects imo.
 
With the BACCH the filter seems to adjust to the speaker position. Edgar claims that even symmetry is no longer an issue. The filter will adjust level and time alignment to compensate.

And that can be a big advantage with full range speakers when trying to dodge room modes with speaker positioning

Ya know, I can't see any reason the head tracking portion of BAACH couldn't be applied to any stereo system independent of its cross-talk cancelation.
Maybe even open a bigger market.

All it takes at first blush is time and level adjustment, based on the tracking.
At infocomm etc, where spatial audio demos are so prevalent, presenter/performer tracking is often demonstrated.
Should be easy for home stereo to at least alleviate symmetric listening position needs / head in a vice.
 
I may have to spring for the u-BAACH plugin... just out of sheer curiosity, and see how it would work for the different systems.....and a basic joy for all kinds of different audio experiences.

I think you should try it, it will be interesting to hear what you think of it.

What program will you use to run the plugin? I suggest using a DAW like Reaper or similar where you have full control over input gain and output level, and have everything in check before you start the 14-day trial. The uBACCH plugin only has one simple setting for speaker angle, and when you find what angle works for your system you can render some tracks with the XTC filter for listening after the trial period is over.
 
Nice. I love electrostats.
And i think the 10E's flat panels are particularly well suited for both BAACH's crosstalk cancellation, and head-tracking integration.

I use constant directivity conical horns, unity/synergy, in my main system. Also have some full range stats running.
I may have to spring for the u-BAACH plugin... just out of sheer curiosity, and see how it would work for the different systems.....and a basic joy for all kinds of different audio experiences.
In my opinion the uBACCH does a disservice to the full models. If the uBACCH were the only option I don’t think I would own it. The custom filters are substantially better. And head tracking is essential. uBACCH does create a severe “head in vice” problem.

It’s good for giving listeners a taste of what is possible. But it’s not a final landing place type of product
 
I think you should try it, it will be interesting to hear what you think of it.

What program will you use to run the plugin? I suggest using a DAW like Reaper or similar where you have full control over input gain and output level, and have everything in check before you start the 14-day trial. The uBACCH plugin only has one simple setting for speaker angle, and when you find what angle works for your system you can render some tracks with the XTC filter for listening after the trial period is over.

JRiver. A while back I used it for FIR, but will have to relearn VST insertion.

I/O gains, routing etc, is one of my strengths. So JRiver sending Dante out,.... and once signals' in qsys land I got her for good, lol
 
In my opinion the uBACCH does a disservice to the full models. If the uBACCH were the only option I don’t think I would own it. The custom filters are substantially better. And head tracking is essential. uBACCH does create a severe “head in vice” problem.

It’s good for giving listeners a taste of what is possible. But it’s not a final landing place type of product
That makes full sense to me. It's pretty easy to see the uBACCH alone magnifies the need for head in a vice precision.
For me, with no real desire for spatial enhance, the full on BAACH is a non-starter. But just to know, I would like to hear ...hence a possible springing for the plugin.
Hey, I got Dirac Live last year just to measure it's line level transfer functions..., never really expected it to improve sound (and it didn't) Curiosity has it's price lol.

Like said earlier, I think head tracking could make a lot of sense for a lot of folks....even ones not interested in spacial enhancement so much.
 
That makes full sense to me. It's pretty easy to see the uBACCH alone magnifies the need for head in a vice precision.
For me, with no real desire for spatial enhance, the full on BAACH is a non-starter. But just to know, I would like to hear ...hence a possible springing for the plugin.
Hey, I got Dirac Live last year just to measure it's line level transfer functions..., never really expected it to improve sound (and it didn't) Curiosity has it's price lol.

Like said earlier, I think head tracking could make a lot of sense for a lot of folks....even ones not interested in spacial enhancement so much.
They do offer a trial for the Audiophile program. Try it and return it with a restocking charge. You just have to have a Mac. If you don't, you can get one from Costco and return it after the trial.
 
Last edited:
My take is, if the recording was made multitrack for a certain speaker setup, and reproduced with same multitrack speaker setup, then it's certainly not an effect.
Who makes commercial stereo recordings exclusively for a particular specific speaker set up? Is it not and has it not for 6 decades been common knowledge among artists/producers/engineers that commercial recordings will be listened to on a multitude of playback systems and devices a high percentage of which will be headphones and/or IEMs as well as car stereos which has no standardization?
If the multitrack is a result of stereo upmixing, yada yada, then for sure...it's an effect.
Just like I still see BAACH being... (again, with no disparagement at all intended with use of term effect.)
FX, plugins, etc...all are effects imo.
Are headphones an effect?
 
Nice. I love electrostats.
And i think the 10E's flat panels are particularly well suited for both BAACH's crosstalk cancellation, and head-tracking integration.

I use constant directivity conical horns, unity/synergy, in my main system. Also have some full range stats running.
I may have to spring for the u-BAACH plugin... just out of sheer curiosity, and see how it would work for the different systems.....and a basic joy for all kinds of different audio experiences.
I have the same sanders model and they work great. U-BACCH can be very close to the full version if you pick the correct angle with the sanders and that without direct comparison the only noticeable difference is head tracking.
 
Ya know, I can't see any reason the head tracking portion of BAACH couldn't be applied to any stereo system independent of its cross-talk cancelation.
Maybe even open a bigger market.

All it takes at first blush is time and level adjustment, based on the tracking.
At infocomm etc, where spatial audio demos are so prevalent, presenter/performer tracking is often demonstrated.
Should be easy for home stereo to at least alleviate symmetric listening position needs / head in a vice.
The head tracking is also a feature for the ORC filter as well. The advantage being that instead of using room averages the room correction is always precisely designed for your head and ears.

Head transfer function is a big deal. And both custom filters from BACCH and the head tracking are built around that.

The head tracking does stop when the filters are bypassed.
 
I have the same sanders model and they work great. U-BACCH can be very close to the full version if you pick the correct angle with the sanders and that without direct comparison the only noticeable difference is head tracking.
That will also depend on how close your head and ears match the head used to create the uBACCH filter.

Edgar generally says you can expect 60-80% effectiveness from the uBACCH

Since you use the Sanders you already have a big leg up as they are pretty much the ideal speaker system.

Effectiveness is also contingent on the speaker/room system.
 
What I think is funny about all of the anti -BACCH or BACCH skeptic’s(cynics) argument’s is that it is one of the most pure science and most open about about the research audio products ever. BACCH4mac is basically the tool they built for research made available to the public. BACCH shows you the actual before and after measurements and makes it very easy to a-b on and off and even level matches automatically so that isn’t a bias. Very few audio product so easily let you make this comparison so easily. Other audio processing programs ( Dirac, audeysee,lyngdorf, ) are not even close to as transparent with the behind the scenes technology and process and the after the fact measurements. Despite this people spend much less time criticizing this programs.

Anyway people can be skeptical all day about anything they want to but the science behind BACCH is about as open book as a product can be without make the software open source(so much so that the mathematics behind the program are published).
 
What I think is funny about all of the anti -BACCH or BACCH skeptic’s(cynics) argument’s is that it is one of the most pure science and most open about about the research audio products ever.
I hope you are not alluding to me! I have been very clear that the science of XTC is a thing and works.

But if you are, then maybe a certain person's posts in relation to my contribution might be giving you the wrong impression about my position.

BACCH4mac is basically the tool they built for research made available to the public.
cool
BACCH shows you the actual before and after measurements and makes it very easy to a-b on and off and even level matches automatically so that isn’t a bias.
cool
Very few audio product so easily let you make this comparison so easily.
cool
Other audio processing programs ( Dirac, audeysee,lyngdorf, ) are not even close to as transparent with the behind the scenes technology and process and the after the fact measurements.
cool
Despite this people spend much less time criticizing this [RC] programs.
You're kidding, right?
Anyway people can be skeptical all day about anything they want to but the science behind BACCH is about as open book as a product can be without make the software open source (so much so that the mathematics behind the program are published).
Open source software principles are so far removed from a $5000 app that to even use the term in the same sentence is disingenuous. Yes, I know that you are cleverly distinguishing between science and software, but let's keep them far apart, where they belong.

So much of the science behind it is old science (and hence 'open booked' by other people), and so much of the recent R&D work was funded by people other than the people who get the $5000 cheques, that I lie somewhere between amused and offended. In fact I feel confident that the pricing is deliberate and strategic in order to reach a target market of premium goods buyers. You know the type: "It can't be any good if it's cheap."

cheers
 
I hope you are not alluding to me! I have been very clear that the science of XTC is a thing and works.

But if you are, then maybe a certain person's posts in relation to my contribution might be giving you the wrong impression about my position.


cool

cool

cool

cool

You're kidding, right?

Open source software principles are so far removed from a $5000 app that to even use the term in the same sentence is disingenuous. Yes, I know that you are cleverly distinguishing between science and software, but let's keep them far apart, where they belong.

So much of the science behind it is old science (and hence 'open booked' by other people), and so much of the recent R&D work was funded by people other than the people who get the $5000 cheques, that I lie somewhere between amused and offended. In fact I feel confident that the pricing is deliberate and strategic in order to reach a target market of premium goods buyers. You know the type: "It can't be any good if it's cheap."

cheers
Someone much ruder than myself might ask “ where mean did Mr. BACCH touch you?”
 
I hope you are not alluding to me! I have been very clear that the science of XTC is a thing and works.

But if you are, then maybe a certain person's posts in relation to my contribution might be giving you the wrong impression about my position.


cool

cool

cool

cool

You're kidding, right?

Open source software principles are so far removed from a $5000 app that to even use the term in the same sentence is disingenuous. Yes, I know that you are cleverly distinguishing between science and software, but let's keep them far apart, where they belong.

So much of the science behind it is old science (and hence 'open booked' by other people), and so much of the recent R&D work was funded by people other than the people who get the $5000 cheques, that I lie somewhere between amused and offended. In fact I feel confident that the pricing is deliberate and strategic in order to reach a target market of premium goods buyers. You know the type: "It can't be any good if it's cheap."

cheers
Of course you are one of the folks he was alluding to as “anti -BACCH or BACCH skeptic’s(cynics)” and you swooped right and proved his point.

So did you call Princeton? Did you expose Edgar?

Now you have a pricing conspiracy theory?

What next? Edgar is a reptilian who gets his powers from the blood of ritualistic human sacrifices?
 
Of course you are one of the folks he was alluding to as “anti -BACCH or BACCH skeptic’s(cynics)” and you swooped right and proved his point.

So did you call Princeton? Did you expose Edgar?

Now you have a pricing conspiracy theory?

What next? Edgar is a reptilian who gets his powers from the blood of ritualistic human sacrifices?
As far as pricing I don’t think they are making huge amounts of profit. When they refurbish the BACCH-Sp’s for people they actually lose money on the upgrade. Actual snake oil salesman like good ‘ol’ Paul from PS audio don’t draw as much ire.
 
I hope you are not alluding to me! I have been very clear that the science of XTC is a thing and works.

But if you are, then maybe a certain person's posts in relation to my contribution might be giving you the wrong impression about my position.


cool

cool

cool

cool

You're kidding, right?

Open source software principles are so far removed from a $5000 app that to even use the term in the same sentence is disingenuous. Yes, I know that you are cleverly distinguishing between science and software, but let's keep them far apart, where they belong.

So much of the science behind it is old science (and hence 'open booked' by other people), and so much of the recent R&D work was funded by people other than the people who get the $5000 cheques, that I lie somewhere between amused and offended. In fact I feel confident that the pricing is deliberate and strategic in order to reach a target market of premium goods buyers. You know the type: "It can't be any good if it's cheap."

cheers
Please reference my post about what you get with the $5,000 edition. There is some expensive hardware and above average cost customer support. It is way more than the software. You can't compare it to a download.
 
Please reference my post about what you get with the $5,000 edition. There is some expensive hardware and above average cost customer support. It is way more than the software. You can't compare it to a download.
All true. And it does seem that some folks don’t really take into account the cost of software development. Theoretica has been developing the BACCH software for over a decade. That costs money. The people who work on software should get compensated for their work and their talent.
 
Back
Top Bottom