Douk Audio DAC-Q11--The first USB DAC with Switchable ESS9038Q2M and AK4493?

[4Real]

Same reason there's a million different tool companies making hammers.

Just because a problem is solved, doesn't mean a monopoly will automatically emerge.

Marketing usually has its focus on a ton of other things than real world objective performance. There's always a niche to dig into.

Seriously, a good implementation of a modern SOTA DAC chip keeps all of the undesirable effects at -120dB or lower. That's 0.0001% of the desired signal.

Anybody, who thinks that this percentage combined with their immaculate hearing is enough to give a "sound signature", are just plain delusional. No offence

not talking about different companies making different DAC chips. I'm talking about the SAME company making various (different) DAC chips. As listed above. ESS makes multiple chips.

 

[Killingbeans]

They are again targeting different parts of the market. You can get more product out the door that way.

Some designers go for portability and/or low power consumption. Some go for as much bang for the buck as possible. Some just want to be able to put "ESS" or "AKM" in their maketing material while still keeping every part of the BOM as cheap as possible. Others aim at pride of ownership by always using the latest and greatest chip, even if it's way overkill. There's tons of different design goals, and both ESS and AKM have you covered for most of them.

 

[Count Biscotti]

To be kind to the folks who went to the effort of bringing this product to market, this looks like an interesting way to do your own A-B test. I'm of the opinion that what you will find, providing the implementation of both chips is equal, is that you are really picking out the quirks of the recording studio mixing board, and the microphone brand and placement.

But

I think it would be interesting to have a full ASR review on this just to see how similar the graphs look superimposed..

 

[antcollinet]

To be kind to the folks who went to the effort of bringing this product to market, this looks like an interesting way to do your own A-B test.

Unfortunately not - unless external level matching is undertaken - it seems from posts above that the output level is different for the two chips.

 

[pseudoid]

Unfortunately not - unless external level matching is undertaken - it seems from posts above that the output level is different for the two chips.

I promise to chip-in $10, for you to purchase one and report back on the quantitative differences between the two chips.
If I am not mistaken; the inner-you sounds like you (w/7replies) are that proverbial cat stuck between curiosity and satisfaction!

 

[antcollinet]

I promise to chip-in $10, for you to purchase one and report back on the quantitative differences between the two chips.
If I am not mistaken; the inner-you sounds like you (w/7replies) are that proverbial cat stuck between curiosity and satisfaction!

You need to see my first post (No 3) on the thread. I'd hoped I made my disdain clear

 

[pseudoid]

You need to see my first post (No 3) on the thread. I'd hoped I made my disdain clear

I had initially thought your post#3 was quite harsh at a manufacturer, who may have been meaning well!
I attempted to provide a different perspective in my post#68.

In all honesty; I would be inclined to do such an A/B 'chip' test just out of curiosity ... then, I'd end-up giving it away... since I am flush with DACs and ADCs.

 

[Rob83]

What surprises me is that nobody seems to notice that this DAC has replaceable opamps on each output. Changing between DAC chips, changing between opamps… this thing is even more fun than a karaoke set at a party!

 

[antcollinet]

I had initially thought your post#3 was quite harsh at a manufacturer, who may have been meaning well!

Meaning well or not - the whole concept of the product is based on the audiophiliac concept of "everything matters". In this case, DAC chips on their own - when in reality implementation is everything.

It just reinforces the type of misinformation (in this case that DAC chips "have a sound") that we try to counter here at ASR using actual science and engineering.

Just IMO FWIW.

 

[antcollinet]

Changing between DAC chips, changing between opamps

Neither of which should make any audible difference if the implementation is correct.

Welcome to ASR by the way

 

[dlovesmusic]

I think it begs the question - what’s worse? dacs that charges a hefty premium and gives you 4 dac chips in a dac when 1 dac chip is already sufficient for absolute transparency.
Or in this case, it gives you all these options, all at the price of $170

 

[pseudoid]

It just reinforces the type of misinformation (in this case that DAC chips "have a sound") that we try to counter here at ASR using actual science and engineering.

Let us review - for a moment - as to how many 'steppings' of the ESS Sabre there has been, per @4Real posted chart. Should I ask if they all 'sounded' the same?

Neither of which should make any audible difference if the implementation is correct.

BIG should until the implementation is found to be imperfect.
This specific hardware appears to do what "we" ask of a DAC to do, and complaints rain-in when 'we' get a BOGO!
It may be silly to you but it can serve more than a few purposes, at the price point.

 

[Count Arthur]

'm ok with this

the world is full of strange products and this one strikes my sense of the absurd

I have some three legged trousers I can let you have for a very good price.

 

[antcollinet]

but it can serve more than a few purposes, at the price point.

Yes it can. But what I am objecting to is the headline purpose for which it is sold, and the reinforcement of audio mythology that represents.

Switchable design, experience different sounds via just one DAC...

The groundbreaking design enables users to enjoy the robust dynamics of the ESS9038Q2M or the refined tones of the AK4493, vastly enhancing personalized audio experiences and pioneering new frontiers in the HiFi realm.

All the non-mythological purposes could be equally or better supported by putting two duplicated/identical DACs into the box, with the added advantage of not needing to level match them.

 

[BlackTalon]

I honestly don't see why.

Both are designed to pass something on uncontaminated, and both do that task so exceedingly well, that human senses have no chance of detecting the remnants.

With proper amplification (i.e., $200,000 minimum), Odin speaker cables and educated ears, it is possible to hear the difference between the two distilled waters...

 

[Rob83]

Neither of which should make any audible difference if the implementation is correct.

Welcome to ASR by the way

Thanks!

Well, there actually is both audible and measurable differences between chip opamps. There are discrete opamps from companies like Sparkos Labs and Burson that fit in dip8 sockets. Those seem to do a better job than most chip opamps. Especially when it comes to channel separation as chip opamps seem to have some more cross talk.

 

[antcollinet]

Thanks!

Well, there actually is both audible and measurable differences between chip opamps. There are discrete opamps from companies like Sparkos Labs and Burson that fit in dip8 sockets. Those seem to do a better job than most chip opamps. Especially when it comes to channel separation as chip opamps seem to have some more cross talk.

Measurable? Of course. Audible - extremely unlikely in line level (low gain) circuits. Unless the swapped in op amp upsets the circuit stability causing audible ringing and distortion. One an op amp has sufficient gain bandwidth (all the usual suspects have) and sufficiently low noise (all the usual suspects have), then it is the circuit around the chip - rather than the chip itself that determines the audible performance.


EDIT : Here is a post showing test results of about 15 different op amps in an amiya DAC chip amp. None of the differences are audible, except some of the red ones where the swap has caused massive distortion - probably due to causing instability as mentioned above. Perhaps some of the yellow/orange ones have degraded performance sufficiently to be audible also.

Of interest considering your comment is that the Muse02 has actually made crosstalk worse - although inaudibly so.

Fosi Audio V3 op-amp rolling, has anyone tried it? Snake oil? Or are there actual differences?

A plastic cup holds water. A glass looks better, has better specs in certain areas... but still it just needs to hold water, which it does fine be it crystal, Ikea glass or plastic. And sometimes the "worse" component, a plastic cup, is just what was specified for the job and lasts longer and...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[Rob83]

EDIT : Here is a post showing test results of about 15 different op amps in an amiya DAC chip amp. None of the differences are audible, except some of the red ones where the swap has caused massive distortion - probably due to causing instability as mentioned above. Perhaps some of the yellow/orange ones have degraded performance sufficiently to be audible also.

Of interest considering your comment is that the Muse02 has actually made crosstalk worse - although inaudibly so.

Fosi Audio V3 op-amp rolling, has anyone tried it? Snake oil? Or are there actual differences?

A plastic cup holds water. A glass looks better, has better specs in certain areas... but still it just needs to hold water, which it does fine be it crystal, Ikea glass or plastic. And sometimes the "worse" component, a plastic cup, is just what was specified for the job and lasts longer and...

audiosciencereview.com

I don’t know if sending a 1khz tone through it would be an accurate representation. For example, I have a pair of suspicious opa1612’s here that came with a C3850 kit and they seem to perform fine if I send a 1 kHz tone through them. As soon as I test with other frequencies in the audible spectrum the performance starts to look much worse, especially at higher gain levels. Swapping them out for a pair of sparkos ss3602. Not only did I got better measurements, it also sounded better.

 

[pseudoid]

and the reinforcement of audio mythology that represents.

I doubt there is any snake-oil perpetuated here...
Again imo:

This specific hardware appears to do what "we" ask of a DAC to do, and complaints rain-in when 'we' get a BOGO!
It may be silly to you but it can serve more than a few purposes, at the price point.

We can only hope a redesign (or sw?) can -or may - fix the design flaw (re: matched output levels).

 

[Bob from Florida]

So what if Douk wants to sell a switchable DAC chip DAC. Some of those posting here don't seem to understand marketing. It is so cheap, if someone wants to try it - not exactly a big deal. Douk probably deserves a medal for daring to post here!