"Double bass" over using a crossover is the way to go

[Naqus]

If it sounds balanced and musical in your room, that’s really all that matters

 

[Audionaut]

I am finding that using my main speakers full-range is usually preferable for home listening where extra bass is desirable. I also use subwoofers but I set the LPF no higher than around 60Hz. I like listening this way instead of using a crossover.

That's a very general statement, but it may well be true in your case.

In general, it depends.

If you have a three-way main system in which each speaker has two 12" woofers with high displacement volume and a lower cutoff frequency of approx. 30 Hz, with a crossover frequency to the midrange of, for example, 350 Hz, the room frequency response will stabilize at around 20 Hz, which is very dependent on the room in question.
In this case, you will probably need to equalize the room in most rooms rather than add an additional subwoofer.


If the setup consists of two-way speakers, which are now very common, with a bass-midrange driver of around five to eight inches that has to transmit from the Contra-octave up to 1.8 kHz, then one or more subwoofers will definitely bring an enormous gain in sound performance. This is subjectively perceived and clearly measurable objectively.

The greatest gain will be in the changed perception of the room, because the lowest frequencies store a great deal of information about the room, and above all, the midrange will be much cleaner and relieved of large mechanical strokes, distortion from the diaphragm and surround, possible electrical overload, and Doppler distortion. The voice coil unit will almost always remain in a very clean range with well-designed chassis, of course, but that is always a prerequisite.

 

[popej]

When running speakers with sub, there could be weird interaction. Phase characteristics are different, at some frequencies speakers could work with opposite phase than sub, maybe creating a null.
But if it works for you, than you don't need Dirac ART

 

[Oddball]

Right - nobody needs ART, after all it is not water or air. But only very few could do better than ART - and that is certainly not with Audy.

 

[krabapple]

For some historical perspective, the original ITU, EBS etc standards for multichannel (5.0, 5.1) sound evaluation call for 5 identical full-range speakers, with optional subwoofer for film soundtracks. Provision for bandwidth limited speakers + subwoofers is also made
eg from 2004:

Listening conditions for the assessment of sound programme material: multichannel sound

The scope of this supplement is limited to the multichannel sound system described in ITU-R Recommendation BS.775-1 [2] which uses five, full-bandwidth main loudspeakers usually arranged on the perimeter of a circle centred on the main listening position (5.0), with an optional ‘low frequency extension’ channel (5.1).
.
.
.
The 5.0 multichannel system is based on the use of five identical, full-range, discrete channels. Each of the five channels should satisfy the same response tolerances as for monophonic or two-channel stereophonic listening as specified in the main part of EBU Tech. 3276. Usually, the same equipment would be used for all five main channels. However, systems using main loudspeakers with reduced bass output may be used in conjunction with one or more separate bass loudspeakers. The effective response of each of the five main loudspeakers should meet the operational room response curve specification. In those cases where the number of separate bass loudspeakers is not the same as the number of main loudspeakers, the matrixing of the low-frequency drive signals must be such as to ensure that appropriate proportions of each main channel signal are taken.

 

[krabapple]

'Classically', the main problem with running small speakers full range is increased distortion at high bass playback levels.

Depending on speaker placement there could also be SBIR issues...which room DSP could tame.

But 'if it sounds good, it is good' -- Duke Ellington.

 

[Hear Here]

I am finding that using my main speakers full-range is usually preferable for home listening where extra bass is desirable. I also use subwoofers but I set the LPF no higher than around 60Hz. I like listening this way instead of using a crossover.

This will depend almost entirely on your main speakers. If you have spent good money for genuinely full-range floor-standers (likely to have 10" minimum bass drivers), then I agree that keeping mains delivering the full range must be the best option - as otherwise you've wasted good money on these full-range speakers!

If you have stand-mounts or floor-standers that can't really be expected to deliver the lowest notes (likely with 7" or smaller bass drivers), then best to spare them these very low frequencies in order to avoid the distortion (or even damage at high volumes) that forcing low frequencies on them will inevitably result.

My own main speakers feature twin 12" drivers, so I would be miffed to have to relegate low frequencies solely to the subs’ drivers that are likely to be less good than the ones in my main speakers. As others have said, the only reason for those with full-range main speakers to add subs is to try to reduce nulls. The same applied to my previous 4 sets of main speakers (KEF, Martin Logan and Avantgarde) all had twin 10" drivers.

I am miffed as my preamp features DL and DLBC designed to maximise bass performance, but as soon as I tell the preamp that there are subs present, it insists on applying the same XO to my mains as my subs. My only way around this is to connect the subs to my main speaker outlet sockets and use the subs’ built-in XO. A fudge, but far better than depriving my main speakers of handling deep bass – the reason I spent so much on them in the first place! And worse – all the deep bass would be mono even though I have 2 subs. Shame on you NAD for depriving us the ability of choosing different XOs for mains and subs, specially as earlier Master Series offered this!

 

[popej]

I am miffed as my preamp features DL and DLBC designed to maximise bass performance, but as soon as I tell the preamp that there are subs present, it insists on applying the same XO to my mains as my subs. My only way around this is to connect the subs to my main speaker outlet sockets and use the subs’ built-in XO.

Seems like time travel to previous century. Can't you set crossover frequency for front to something low enough, like 30-40Hz? Actually, doesn't DLBC set it automatically?

 

[Hear Here]

Seems like time travel to previous century. Can't you set crossover frequency for front to something low enough, like 30-40Hz? Actually, doesn't DLBC set it automatically?

No. The Settings ask whether I have None, or 1, 2, 3 or 4 subs. If I say none, then the full frequency range goes to the Main speaker outputs and all the sub outs are muted.

If I say 1, 2, 3 or 4 subs, then it insists on an XO to be provided and that applies to all outputs. For example, if I choose 60, the mains will get 60 and above, while the subs get 60 and below.

Daft and unwelcome, particularly as earlier Master Series (M32 and M12) allowed the mains to receive No XO or a specified one, while the subs' XO could also be full-range or a specified one, perhaps different from the main XO. This flexibility has been removed from the M33 and M66. I've yet to have it confirmed that the new M33 V2 also suffers from this handicap.

 

[Oddball]

This will depend almost entirely on your main speakers. If you have spent good money for genuinely full-range floor-standers (likely to have 10" minimum bass drivers), then I agree that keeping mains delivering the full range must be the best option - as otherwise you've wasted good money on these full-range speakers!

If you have stand-mounts or floor-standers that can't really be expected to deliver the lowest notes (likely with 7" or smaller bass drivers), then best to spare them these very low frequencies in order to avoid the distortion (or even damage at high volumes) that forcing low frequencies on them will inevitably result.

My own main speakers feature twin 12" drivers, so I would be miffed to have to relegate low frequencies solely to the subs’ drivers that are likely to be less good than the ones in my main speakers. As others have said, the only reason for those with full-range main speakers to add subs is to try to reduce nulls. The same applied to my previous 4 sets of main speakers (KEF, Martin Logan and Avantgarde) all had twin 10" drivers.

I am miffed as my preamp features DL and DLBC designed to maximise bass performance, but as soon as I tell the preamp that there are subs present, it insists on applying the same XO to my mains as my subs. My only way around this is to connect the subs to my main speaker outlet sockets and use the subs’ built-in XO. A fudge, but far better than depriving my main speakers of handling deep bass – the reason I spent so much on them in the first place! And worse – all the deep bass would be mono even though I have 2 subs. Shame on you NAD for depriving us the ability of choosing different XOs for mains and subs, specially as earlier Master Series offered this!

This is courtesy of Dirac. Dirac ART takes away the crossover but bass control was designed that way.

 

[Oddball]

Seems like time travel to previous century. Can't you set crossover frequency for front to something low enough, like 30-40Hz? Actually, doesn't DLBC set it automatically?

That is not a crossover you would want to set in most cases. By the time subs pick up its game over for music and also for the most part for HT.

 

[popej]

HT uses separate LFE channel, which is not restricted by crossover. As for music, we talk about speakers that are nearly as much capable as subwoofer. Cutting sound below 40Hz makes their work easier, limiting cone excursion in a frequency range, where efficiency drops.
But there won't be simultaneous work of fronts and sub.

 

[Oddball]

HT uses separate LFE channel, which is not restricted by crossover. As for music, we talk about speakers that are nearly as much capable as subwoofer. Cutting sound below 40Hz makes their work easier, limiting cone excursion in a frequency range, where efficiency drops.
But there won't be simultaneous work of fronts and sub.

40 hz crossover does not make sense in any scenario though. Why would you thing it makes sense?

 

[Sokel]

40 hz crossover does not make sense in any scenario though. Why would you thing it makes sense?

Lund thinks it makes sense for single sub (but the goal is different) :

Genelec 8351B Review (Studio Monitor)

It's not particularly difficult to make them complain without hitting the limiters. Sub heavy content (hip hop, especially) even at reasonable levels will do it. If you need a good example, Hey Now on Kendrick Lamar's new album will do it. That's a speaker killer. Either speakers are faulty or...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[popej]

When someone wants to get low bass from fonts, but can't set speakers to large?

 

[Oddball]

Lund thinks it makes sense for single sub (but the goal is different) :

Genelec 8351B Review (Studio Monitor)

It's not particularly difficult to make them complain without hitting the limiters. Sub heavy content (hip hop, especially) even at reasonable levels will do it. If you need a good example, Hey Now on Kendrick Lamar's new album will do it. That's a speaker killer. Either speakers are faulty or...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Without reading this as have no interest in it, 40hz makes no sense as even the lowest possible slope will not phase in the sub at the right time - unless we are taking about trying to match infra subs with active speakers with sub unit. But then infra subs would probably have much more to say than the active sub units up to what - 80hz?

 

[Sokel]

Without reading this as have no interest in it, 40hz makes no sense as even the lowest possible slope will not phase in the sub at the right time - unless we are taking about trying to match infra subs with active speakers with sub unit.

The goal there is stereo bass and AE, through bigger speakers and subs.
Lund states that the effect is lost if only a sub summed to mono is used crossed over 40Hz or so.

We talk 2-chann there of course, so...

 

[Oddball]

The goal there is stereo bass and AE, through bigger speakers and subs.
Lund states that the effect is lost if only a sub summed to mono is used crossed over 40Hz or so.

We talk 2-chann there of course, so...

Lol, not interested in that at all. But crossing over at 40 hz, Lund or not, is a great challenge. I have already stated my beef with it, no need to repeat. Also not sure at what SPL that is intended. I have really big towers but could not even think of cross them at 40hz as long as I have at least some sanity in my mind. Good thing that ART came along so don't have to think about these arcane issues.

 

[Hear Here]

This is courtesy of Dirac. Dirac ART takes away the crossover but bass control was designed that way.

No, I don't believe Dirac has anything to do with the mains being deprived of low bass, If I bypass Dirac (No Filter) the same applies - NAD insists on an XO that is applied to both mains and subs if I say there's a sub present