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Don't really understand audio in the slightest but looking for advice.

Nomis

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Looking for some advice from people who know better than me.

Years ago I had a B&W 5.0 setup (CM8 and CMC2 and CM1 rears with pioneer AV receiver) and I was never thrilled with it, always had issues with volumes being too loud and needing tinkering. I did love the clarity of vocals for TV shows though, didn't really care for the 'immersive sound' even though it was just 5 speakers, I just found it distracting. I also didn't really rate the B&W's for music though, kind of felt let down after spending that much money and the not enjoying the music I once loved. Perhaps I had a poorly matching receiver, but that's in the past.

I sold it all when I moved and replaced it with a Sonos sounder and sub, I knew it would be a step down and it was very obviously worse but I didn't watch too much TV/game at the times as I was busy so I just left it.

Fast forward to 2021 and since it was lockdown, I got some Genelec 8020s for my desk and had been occasionally watching Netflix at my desk, and then going to watch it on the TV and noticing just how terrible it sounds compared to my desk setup, I find myself not wanting to use my TV/PS5 setup.

I have been researching speaker setups for the past few days and had decided I would get Kef R3 fronts and R2C centre and a new AV receiver, then I checked out the sizes and remembered all the past clutter and started to look for alternatives.

I thought I may as well just test out what I have, the genelec 8020s in the area that my LG OLED is in. It's quite a large room (5 meters by 6 meters by 5 meters tall) and I know that these monitors are for near field listening, but I moved my chair to various distances and it all sounded amazing to me and got far, far louder than I would ever want to play it (to be clear, I have very sensitive hearing due to issues I had in childhood and I find the volume of a commercial cinema to be uncomfortably loud, for clarity). I was also staggered by how well I could hear the dialogue, from the TV shows that I was streaming from Netflix, I had always (perhaps erroneously) thought that I needed a centre channel or I would always be doomed to have the situation in movies where the dialogue is too quite but if you turn it up the rest of the sound is too loud.

To hook the genelec monitors to my TV I basically had my MacBook connected to my TV and the speakers were connected to my MOTU M2 audio interface via usb-c to my Mac. I was just doing this to test out a 2.0 genelec setup. I have a PS5 and Xbox also connected to the TV and I need the interface for my desk so this isn't really a solution.

To be clear, music is low priority for this setup, I will always either be watching tv series, sport, or playing my PS5.

So, my questions:

1) The only audio output from my TV is optical. I read that I can use a simple digital to analogue device from Amazon (<£20) and then use RCA > XLR cables to the genelec speakers. Would this result in inferior sound quality than I was getting from my MacBook/audio interface setup or would it be the same? I'm not informed enough to know if perhaps the MacBook/interface was doing some processing that the TV can't.

2) I considering a 3.0 LCR setup and perhaps adding a small sub at a later date, but now that I've tested it I think it may be more hassle than it's worth since I enjoyed the 2.0 setup just fine and don't care for surround. I had looked at an AV receiver to enable me to use the pre-amp inputs for 3x LCR genelec speakers, but I'm thinking this may be unnecessarily complicated? I also feel like paying for all the features, amplification and such that I just don't need is a waste of money.

3) Given that I need my 8020s for my desk, I was thinking of splurging and getting the genelec 8331 speakers as a L+R directly connected to the TV in the manner that I've mentioned in number 1), is there any real downside to doing this?

4) I want to avoid stand-mount speakers, as discussed I do not play a high SPL and have no desire to, I would like the option to add a small subwoofer at a later date though, although in the first instance that's not necessary.

Thanks for any advice, and forgive all my ignorance! Love the reliance on data and facts on this forum. It's refreshing given how many times I feel I have been mis-sold stuff due to subjective reviewing.
 
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Walter

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1. A $20 DAC will most likely sound noticeablyu worse. A $140 Topping D10B will definitely not. If your TV volume control works on the optical out, that is all you need. If not consider the Topping E50 or any of the other well regarded balanced dacs with remotes.
2. I agree. Center channel adds nothing if you only have a single listener sitting dead center, at least in my experience.
3. That would be awesome but probably overkill. For movies and games, the 8350 would probable be a better choice for about the same price. Or even better, 8330 plus a 7350 sub. And the SAM kit for EQ, of course.
4. If you buy the 83xx series, it makes sense to get a Genelec SAM capable sub. If you stick to the 80xx, then there are much better sub options for the money--SVS, Monolith, etc.
 
OP
N

Nomis

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1. A $20 DAC will most likely sound noticeablyu worse. A $140 Topping D10B will definitely not. If your TV volume control works on the optical out, that is all you need. If not consider the Topping E50 or any of the other well regarded balanced dacs with remotes.
2. I agree. Center channel adds nothing if you only have a single listener sitting dead center, at least in my experience.
3. That would be awesome but probably overkill. For movies and games, the 8350 would probable be a better choice for about the same price. Or even better, 8330 plus a 7350 sub. And the SAM kit for EQ, of course.
4. If you buy the 83xx series, it makes sense to get a Genelec SAM capable sub. If you stick to the 80xx, then there are much better sub options for the money--SVS, Monolith, etc.
Just wanted to say thank you so much for your response. That's exactly what I needed to hear and I went away and read about DAC's, my TV seems to support volume over optical but doesn't have USB out so I'm going to order the Topping E50.

Quite relieved that someone agrees regarding the need for centre channel, means I can afford better speakers.

I'm going to get the 8331 and 7350 sub that you suggested along with the SAM kit. I know it is overkill but I really love how the Genelec 'the ones' series look.

Thanks again.
 

Walter

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Just wanted to say thank you so much for your response. That's exactly what I needed to hear and I went away and read about DAC's, my TV seems to support volume over optical but doesn't have USB out so I'm going to order the Topping E50.

Quite relieved that someone agrees regarding the need for centre channel, means I can afford better speakers.

I'm going to get the 8331 and 7350 sub that you suggested along with the SAM kit. I know it is overkill but I really love how the Genelec 'the ones' series look.

Thanks again.
Glad I could help, and I totally forgot that the D10 had optical out instead of optical in. Glad you caught that. You will have an awesome system, that's for sure.
 
D

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I hope I'm not too late to give you a completely different suggestion...

Stay with stereo.
Think about a mini-amp and a pair of speakers for your tv set.
This does not have to be expensive at all ... many really good systems can be put together for under $500.

The current favourite in the Mini-Amp category is the Aiyima A07.
Speaker wise look at the Elac Debut 6.2 or 5.2 speakers

Here's the trick ... if your TV has a headphone jack, you can plug the A07 into it and the TV will still control the volume and give you pretty decent sound in the bargain, without a DAC.

Also you may find this helpful...
 

voodooless

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How will you get the center signal out of a stereo DAC? For one, optical output from a TV is either stereo or DD/DTS. The latter stereo DAC’s can’t decode.

You can find some cheaper HDMI audio extractors with some decoding capabilities though. That might let you skip the AVR, but just about all are too limited and don’t even let you select a channel configuration (other than 2.0 and 5.1), set crossovers and distances.

For the best center channel experience an AVR is still the best solution.

If you don’t want all the hassle, just get the GLM Genelec’s, convert you optical TV sound to AES, and use a GLM volume control. It certainly is the most simple and clean solution. No center channel though.
 

srrxr71

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So if you are willing. I use a bluesound node with my LG OLED. It connects to HDMI port 2 the eARC port. You can use the LG remote to control its volume via CEC.

The problem being its $600 cost which probably be the same number in GBP.
 

lennyanders

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I had to use a bluesound node (or maybe any eARC device) as I had massive dropout problems using the optical out of my LG OLED. I'm still not 100% sure if it's only the fault of my TV or the optical to coaxial concerter I used (which worked perfectly using the optical out of my CD player and FiiO K3 though) or something else. More on people having problems or not having problems with LG OLEDs optical out here: https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...sy-digital-audio-on-lg-tvs.38421/post-1371187
 

srrxr71

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Wow that’s terrible for an otherwise perfect TV. I had zero problems feeding a pair of LS50W with a TCL optical out.

Edit: I will add one thing. I’m so thankful this bluesound node actually works as promised. If it came half baked I think I would have really been upset. Most of these new technologies come half baked with bugs and forum support and people waiting for new firmwares. If you go to AVS forum most of the AV products are like this. Something or the other doesn’t work. However by the grace of heaven this product does what it says.

However the one time I I had to contact support it was a total waste of time. I fixed it myself by the time I got any response. Basically I reset the thing. After I got a response I realized that they are not equipped to support anything. So i’m glad the designers got it right.

In fact even the USB out actually works too. They were smart to not roll it out until it was done. That was a wait.

I haven’t played with HDMI extractors and if I did I would try the HD Fury Vrroom due to its switch and other features. I’m just glad I didn’t need to. Most sources are and will be HDMI 2.0 anyway. It’s just nice to have everything future proofed.

Anyway I waited and found a much cheaper HDMI 2.1 switch on Amazon. Have not tried it yet but will soon.
 
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lennyanders

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I would be interested in your results. I read that many HDMI audio extractors only work with DRM free content, but I don't know what that exactly mean. If I could still play Blu-rays using that, for example. So I would rather try a eARC audio extractor than something like this.

I actually had 3 small problems with my Bluesound Node. When using the line out option, my TV always starts muted, so I just use "normal" mode and full volume. Wi-Fi didn't always work great, so I switched to LAN (I have terrible WLAN in my room, so I guess only some devices like my smartphone work okay, haha). And the last thing was that I had to disable the "Audio clock trim" function, since that made loud sounds quieter, like a compressor maybe, don't know. But yeah, all pretty small things, and I really like the device now.
 

NiagaraPete

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Looking for some advice from people who know better than me.

Years ago I had a B&W 5.0 setup (CM8 and CMC2 and CM1 rears with pioneer AV receiver) and I was never thrilled with it, always had issues with volumes being too loud and needing tinkering. I did love the clarity of vocals for TV shows though, didn't really care for the 'immersive sound' even though it was just 5 speakers, I just found it distracting. I also didn't really rate the B&W's for music though, kind of felt let down after spending that much money and the not enjoying the music I once loved. Perhaps I had a poorly matching receiver, but that's in the past.

I sold it all when I moved and replaced it with a Sonos sounder and sub, I knew it would be a step down and it was very obviously worse but I didn't watch too much TV/game at the times as I was busy so I just left it.

Fast forward to 2021 and since it was lockdown, I got some Genelec 8020s for my desk and had been occasionally watching Netflix at my desk, and then going to watch it on the TV and noticing just how terrible it sounds compared to my desk setup, I find myself not wanting to use my TV/PS5 setup.

I have been researching speaker setups for the past few days and had decided I would get Kef R3 fronts and R2C centre and a new AV receiver, then I checked out the sizes and remembered all the past clutter and started to look for alternatives.

I thought I may as well just test out what I have, the genelec 8020s in the area that my LG OLED is in. It's quite a large room (5 meters by 6 meters by 5 meters tall) and I know that these monitors are for near field listening, but I moved my chair to various distances and it all sounded amazing to me and got far, far louder than I would ever want to play it (to be clear, I have very sensitive hearing due to issues I had in childhood and I find the volume of a commercial cinema to be uncomfortably loud, for clarity). I was also staggered by how well I could hear the dialogue, from the TV shows that I was streaming from Netflix, I had always (perhaps erroneously) thought that I needed a centre channel or I would always be doomed to have the situation in movies where the dialogue is too quite but if you turn it up the rest of the sound is too loud.

To hook the genelec monitors to my TV I basically had my MacBook connected to my TV and the speakers were connected to my MOTU M2 audio interface via usb-c to my Mac. I was just doing this to test out a 2.0 genelec setup. I have a PS5 and Xbox also connected to the TV and I need the interface for my desk so this isn't really a solution.

To be clear, music is low priority for this setup, I will always either be watching tv series, sport, or playing my PS5.

So, my questions:

1) The only audio output from my TV is optical. I read that I can use a simple digital to analogue device from Amazon (<£20) and then use RCA > XLR cables to the genelec speakers. Would this result in inferior sound quality than I was getting from my MacBook/audio interface setup or would it be the same? I'm not informed enough to know if perhaps the MacBook/interface was doing some processing that the TV can't.

2) I considering a 3.0 LCR setup and perhaps adding a small sub at a later date, but now that I've tested it I think it may be more hassle than it's worth since I enjoyed the 2.0 setup just fine and don't care for surround. I had looked at an AV receiver to enable me to use the pre-amp inputs for 3x LCR genelec speakers, but I'm thinking this may be unnecessarily complicated? I also feel like paying for all the features, amplification and such that I just don't need is a waste of money.

3) Given that I need my 8020s for my desk, I was thinking of splurging and getting the genelec 8331 speakers as a L+R directly connected to the TV in the manner that I've mentioned in number 1), is there any real downside to doing this?

4) I want to avoid stand-mount speakers, as discussed I do not play a high SPL and have no desire to, I would like the option to add a small subwoofer at a later date though, although in the first instance that's not necessary.

Thanks for any advice, and forgive all my ignorance! Love the reliance on data and facts on this forum. It's refreshing given how many times I feel I have been mis-sold stuff due to subjective reviewing.
And yet you bought a pair if Genelec’s. Good job.
 

Galliardist

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You seem to be on the right track for your needs. The only caution I would give is to make sure you understand your TV audio output settings. You may find that dialogue was clear when you were testing because the audio from the TV is set up to favour it. With the PS5, or on occasions you use the setup for music, those settings may be incorrect and you may need to have the TV set up to give full range flat output for good results.
 

srrxr71

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I would be interested in your results. I read that many HDMI audio extractors only work with DRM free content, but I don't know what that exactly mean. If I could still play Blu-rays using that, for example. So I would rather try a eARC audio extractor than something like this.

I actually had 3 small problems with my Bluesound Node. When using the line out option, my TV always starts muted, so I just use "normal" mode and full volume. Wi-Fi didn't always work great, so I switched to LAN (I have terrible WLAN in my room, so I guess only some devices like my smartphone work okay, haha). And the last thing was that I had to disable the "Audio clock trim" function, since that made loud sounds quieter, like a compressor maybe, don't know. But yeah, all pretty small things, and I really like the device now.
Yes actually I did have a few as well.

I had the volume start dropped on my USB output every start. It seems it was on a timer. I think someone complained and the new firmware fixed it. There is no fixed volume on USB out.

Yes I think I experienced what you did when I was using line out from the Node directly. I did the same.

I had Ethernet always connected so I didn’t have WiFi issues to deal with.

Yes that silly audio clock trim feature would cause pops. It really bothered me. After I turned it off it’s been smooth sailing. That would have been a disaster if we couldn’t disable it. The product would be as good as useless.
 

srrxr71

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You seem to be on the right track for your needs. The only caution I would give is to make sure you understand your TV audio output settings. You may find that dialogue was clear when you were testing because the audio from the TV is set up to favour it. With the PS5, or on occasions you use the setup for music, those settings may be incorrect and you may need to have the TV set up to give full range flat output for good results.
Yes I had to mess with some TV settings. You have to find the one where it just passes the signal untouched.
 

FrantzM

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Hi

I am not fan of BW speakers. I will not defend these. No way. Genelec are among the best speakers reviewed here... There are others.. some as good some better, yes, better Neumann comes to mind, IME, the KH 420 being one of those superlative speakers reviewed and so are the Revel f328 be, f228be, f 208, m106 et.. PhilharmoniC BMR is another superlative but unheralded speakers
This said...

Good sound is a matter of setup.... Setup involves, the room , its treatment/furnishing, speaker position, EQ, DSP or Digital Room Correction. Subwoofer integration, settings... Keep in mind that the room dominates in the bass (anything below 500 Hz, we'll call "bass"), especially when you seat in the in the mid(1.5 to 3 meters) to far field(>3 meters). Near field you find yourself hearing more of the speakers than the room, even in the bass.. mid and far field... the room dominates, thus setup.

Just plucking Genelec speakers and using GLM is no guarantee of great sound is set up is not correct.. Your room is not small and you will be listening in the mid field ... You need to understand what you are getting yourself into...
I would suggest to first understand how to get the best out of your current speakers, the not-good BW CM, before getting the Genelec. This way, you will learn, by asking questions here and visiting ASR threads, how to get the best out of a system .. Why and how to positon your speakers... Using the AVR setup, etc..

or you get the Genelec and still must learn how to extract the best out of these
:)


Peace
 
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srrxr71

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^^^ absolutely. Use REW and treatments and learn about your room first. Don’t go spending on new gear until you understand your room and how treatments and subwoofer positions work.

The right thing to do anyway even with DSP magic is to get the absolute best acoustic response possible and use only minimal DSP for final correction. Not the other way around.
 
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