Does this system make sense?

[MKW]

Guys and Gals,

I have a pair of Linkwitz LXmini speakers. Existing system is BlueOS2i streamer (RCA out) to miniDSP4x2 required for LXmini (RCA out) to ATI multi-ch amp (speaker wire) to LXmini's.

I've gathered that SQ could be improved by upgrading DAC (miniDSP DAC is lacking).

I'm thinking of using SPDIF out of BluOS2i to miniDSP nanoDIGI (which has 8-ch of SPDIF out) to two (2) identical DACs (4 channels needed for LXmini speakers), then DACs RCA out to ATI amp.

Thinking of using the best DACs that are reasonably affordable - remembering two are needed. Was thinking Topping D50's, D70, D90, or Denafrips Ares2. Well be shopping used market.

Items of note:
- Not using USB inputs of the DACs - so their extended capabilities when using USB input are of no benefit. Think DSD requires USB input be used?
- Might be nice if DACs had single-ended (RCA) and balanced (XLR) outputs for future amp upgrade capability.
- If there were a 4-ch DAC option, that would be awesome - but I haven't seen or heard of one yet.

I do not know what DAC is in the miniDSP4x10, but think any of the above mentioned will be an improvement.

Does this sound like a feasible plan - pair of DACs running parallel?
Will they output in synchronized fashion if they are same make/model - or is this impossible to have synchronized output from two DACs?
What if I used a single linear power supply to power both - would that help?
What DACs would be best value/performance - is there a better make/model for pairing?

I'm hoping for something obviously better that existing - is this plan likely to achieve obvious improvement? Or does the mediocre DAC in miniDSP sound (audibly) nearly as good as top-rated DACs, and this thought is a waste of money/time/effort?

Thanks for any advice.

 

[HemiRick]

DAC in miniDSP sound (audibly) nearly as good as top-rated DACs, and this thought is a waste of money/time/effort?

Yes Did you read the thread about DACs sounding different, NOT ?

 

[bluefuzz]

I built Nelson Pass' analogue LXmini crossover to the replace the MiniDSP. Not so much for any improvement in sound quality – they sound the same to my ears, though I sometimes imagine the analogue crossover is slightly less 'grainy' in the high end – but for the more flexible signal routing. I can use any DAC/streamer I like and not worry about multiple AD/DA conversions (I use NAD C658). Also, I like building stuff ... ;-)

Before getting the Passlabs crossover I used the MiniDSP 4x2HD which measures rather better than the original 4x2. I'd just go with that if I were you if you are otherwise happy with your setup. It's unlikely your more complicated solution with 'better' DACs would sound audibly different.

Alternatively, you could get rid of the BluOS2i and get a MiniDSP SHD which is their best measuring device and which can both act as streamer, crossover and preamp with Dirac to boot. But the 2x4HD can be upgraded with Dirac too if you prefer to stay with BluOS.

Dirac would make a bigger difference than any potential 'better' DACs, though ...

 

[phoenixdogfan]

I am in the process of having my miniDSP 2 x 4 hd modified so as to output Spidf. The spidf will bypass the existing miniDSP DAC, send the I2S signal via a lemo connected wire to a I2S to spidf converter board in a second box. From there you will be able to use any two of the high quality DACS Amir has reviewed which accept spidf input--and there are a bunch.

This project is similar to a mod a fellow with the handle UMLAUTICA did and posted on reddit a few years back. Mine will be modded to only output 2 channels of Spidf, but the tech doing it will be able to output 4 channels if desired. I hope to get it back this month, and if you wish I'll keep you posted. I'm sure the 2 x 4 HD can run the Linkwitz crossover on its plug-in, so this might be an even better solution for you. The miniDSP 2x4 can also be upgraded to run Dirac firmware.

 

[MKW]

Thank you for the replies.
@HemiRick
Seems you are saying all DACs sound the same. If that is the case, why does this site endeavour to measure/compare them?

@bluefuzz
The BluOS2i I described is an MDC module in a NAD C388 integrated - essentially a PowerNode on steroids with decent phono input. I'm using the miniDSP4x10HD, but also have a 2x4HD (retired by the 4x10). I really like the idea of Nelson's passive crossover (and grateful that he designed it for Linkwitz and fans); however, the sound signature of my LXmini's is always changing - currently have them voiced (subjectively) 95% same as my Tekton DI (upgrade version) - requires a sub. I tweak the DSP settings frequently, and A/B compare with original Linkwitz config (always kept in Config#1 slot) to evaluate performance - and occasionally measure in-room response with OmniMic and REW. That SHD seems like a good recommendation, I'll look into it, and see what DACs they're using.

Meanwhile, I did find a nanoDIGI for $100, so it's on the way. Wish I hadn't sold that Topping D70 a few weeks ago. Now I need a pair of matching DACs.

What I gather from your responses, is despite the focus on DAC measurements of this website, all DACs sound about the same - not worth upgrading past basic. My experience so far is you're correct (and why I sold the D70).

So why keep going down this path you ask. To see what's on the other side - is there treasure? I buy/sell stuff as needed to settle curiosity. Keep what works, sell what doesn't.

 

[MKW]

A couple have mentioned Dirac. Haven't played with Dirac; although, do have Audessey running in the HT system (Denon) - seems to work ok. For the 2-ch system, using DIY 'active' room correction with acoustic ceiling tiles (2'x4' vertically) on-wall with 'exciters' to cancel backwall reflections. Use REW and the mic, extra channels on the 4x10, and 12-ch ATI amp to run them - similar to noise-canceling in headphones. Works ok, need a couple more panels for fuller effect - it's a big wall and they don't handle much power. Wife ok'd front wall treatment "pallet wall would be great" - that will end up being a little (lot) more jagged (diffracting) than she envisions... oops!

 

[M00ndancer]

So why keep going down this path you ask. To see what's on the other side - is there treasure? I buy/sell stuff as needed to settle curiosity. Keep what works, sell what doesn't.

When you have your basic needs satisfied there are other things than sound of the DAC that's important.
Features, headphone out impedance, build quality, warranty etc.

if that is the case, why does this site endeavour to measure/compare them?

To weed out the crap and get a unbiased (as much as that is possible) test. Getting away from manufacturers BS. At least that's my take on it.

 

[solderdude]

@HemiRick
Seems you are saying all DACs sound the same. If that is the case, why does this site endeavour to measure/compare them?

it appears the answer to @HemiRick question is: No I didn't.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...le-thinking-a-dac-has-a-sound-signature.9245/

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/do-all-dacs-sound-the-same.14136/

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/does-dac-performance-great-sound.12194/

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...please-explain-different-sounding-dacs.11318/

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ible-difference-between-different-dacs.10092/

Now I need a pair of matching DACs.

E30's are cheap and can handle a lot. 3 types of inputs as well.

 

[MKW]

@M00ndancer the pair will be used only as DACs - no headphone/pre-amp capabilities necessary. They'll need just the basics:
- Inputs: One stereo Coax SPDIF
- Outputs: stereo pair non-balanced RCA, and stereo pair balanced XLR
- Display: would be nice if it displayed sample rate and a power light (to confirm it's on and working)
- Features: Power socket (to accept LPS), and if they had 12v trigger - that would be nice. Otherwise, the LPS will need trigger.
Any recommendations?

 

[MKW]

@solderdude maybe we misunderstood @HemiRick or he was being facetious?

E30 is lacking balanced output (I think). Wanting balanced to allow future amp upgrade.

Think I'm looking for least expensive/highest-rated DACs with balanced out - which the D70 I sold would have fit that profile; although, had many additional features - unnecessary for this application.

 

[MKW]

@phoenixdogfan wondering what is the cost of such a mod?
Can the tech install SPDIF coax output port into NAD C388? NAD C388 has SPDIF in, but no SPDIF out. So my options are find a streamer/pre with SPDIF out (like Node2i or better), or replace the C388 with M32 - which does have SPDIF out.

One of my goals with this project is to better allocate system cost. Existing 2-ch system (not including extra stuff like phono, disc player, NAS, power conditioner, speakers, etc.) - just what is required (used cost/value - not MSRP):

• NAD C388 w/BluOS2i MDC (duties: AmazonUHD Wifi BluOS streamer and preamp): $1500
• miniDSP 4x10HD (primarily for LXmini speaker crossover) $350
• Crestron/ATI 6012 (multi-ch amp for LXmini) $300
• Total cost = $2150

Future system to provide same/better streaming source, reduce AD/DA conversions, signal in digital domain to furthest point, improved DAC(s)...

• Node2i (or better AmazonUHD wifi streamer with SPDIF out) $350 (used price - before COVID)
  I can wait till they're $350 again, or Bluesound releases next gen, or something better.
• miniDSP nanoDIGI $100-used (delivers today)
• Pair of great DAC's, baseline is Topping D70 (XLR) or D50/D50s (w/o XLR): 2x$250+ = $500-$700
• Crestron/ATI 6012: $300
• Total cost = $1250-$1550

Another completely different upgrade path I've considered is Hypex FA250 plate DSP/amps. Need one for each LXmini, turning them into active 2-way speakers, each with their own DSP/amps. However; I don't find used anywhere, and expensive new @$500 each:

• Node2i or better: $350
• Hypex FA252 x2: $1000 (amps are great, unknown DAC performance)
• Remake LXmini (w/my 3D-printer) to fit FA252 on-speaker: $? (filament) + time & effort (unknown) = expensive yet satisfying
  Could use all new drivers, and sell the original LXmini's for profit after using them to validate the 3D versions - will think on that...
• Total cost $1350 (less if old mini's are sold for profit) + several unknowns.
  The FA252 route seems like a better option for someone with more free time than my schedule allows.

Any thoughts - particularly about the pair of DAC's best suited to basic needs (simple SPDIF in, RCA and XLR out)?

 

[MKW]

Going with a pair of Topping E30's for now - since they measure better than D50/D50s, and consistent regardless of input USB/TOS/SPDIF, also like that they can be set to DAC-only mode and have input-sensing auto on/off (takes care of the 12v trigger issue).

Only items remaining are:

• Will a linear power supply for these DACs be worthwhile?
• Node2i or something better with:
  • AmazonUHD capable
  • Wifi and BT inputs
  • SPDIF output
  • Act as pre-amp (inputs and volume)
  • Great user interface on PC/Tablet/Phone (Win10/Android)
  • Highly-rated

I checked on miniDSP SHD Studio - uses Volumio for control. Seems complicated, like another whole world to learn and manage - not really same ease found on consumer products. I'm not saying its bad (I see many positive reviews), just thinking its not for me right now.

Any recommendations about LPS and streamers is welcome.

 

[MKW]

Just an update on the progress of this endeavor...
I did get a pair of Topping E30 DACs - didn't sound great (think a gain issue) and complicated the system (no fault of the Topping DACs - they were fine). Also used the miniDSP nanoDIGI (2x8) with that pair of Topping E30's - the nanoDIGI does what it's supposed to also - good unit.
I did get a Node2i, and it has been great - although not used currently. I find the BluOS environment extremely enjoyable to use.

Then I wanted to explore Dirac, so replaced miniDSP 4x10HD with miniDSP DDRC-88A/BM (which offers 8-channels in and out of Dirac + DSP and balanced and unbalanced) - another awesome unit, and the plugin for this is spectacular (best I've seen yet in the miniDSP line).

Replaced the NAD C388 with NAD M12 - also a very nice source unit, and with COAX output needed for running direct digital to Hypex plate amps!

Built a stereo pair of Linkwitz Phoenix (Alternate) open-baffle subs, each with a Hypex Ncore FA123 installed on the backside - wanted to use the digital COAX inputs on those plate amps.

I never got around to using the Dirac built-into the miniDSP DDRC-88A/BM, instead replaced the NAD M12 with NAD C658 which has Dirac built-in - received it yesterday, installed the HDM-2 MDC card, updated firmware and setup in about an hour (replacing the M12). Very pleased with it so far (day 2).

The system as it stands at this moment:
Source Units: Turntable and Bluray/SACD/CD player
Pre-amp: NAD C658 (BluOS streamer/Dirac/pre-amp with HDM-2 MDC card and balanced outputs, remote, app control - the control center)
Active crossover: miniDSP DDRC-88A/BM, but soon to be miniDSP 4x10HD again (because Dirac is not needed here due to the C658)
Amp: ATI 6012 (12-channel class A/B amp to drive all the LXmini and each of the ob-subs has 2x 12" drivers - each driver has its own channel)
Speakers: Linkwitz Labs LXmini (I have yet to hear a speaker that does what these do - the magic holographic imaging)
Subs: Linkwitz Labs Phoenix (Alternate) Open-baffle Subs (each with two 12" Typhony/Peerless (made in Denmark) model XLS 830500 drivers. I'm even more pleased with these subs than the LXmini's (the subs will stay regardless of what speakers come and go) effortless goodness are these, without loading the room - just pure bass texture and nuance (all sound - no vibrations).
I'm really enjoying this system.

So what could be made better in this system? I think the next limiting factor in the SQ chain is the ATI amp. And that's one reason for the Hypex FA123's mounted (sitting idle for now) built into the subs. Could incorporate the Hypex amps into the system and get rid of the miniDSP and the ATI amp too - that's the purpose of the NAD C658, since it has Dirac built-in and balanced outputs to feed room-corrected balanced signals to the Hypex FA123's. The NAD C658 is a necessity, because it offers volume control, variety of inputs, BluOS streamer (which does AmazonMusic and Roon), Dirac and balanced output.

 

[Deleted member 27948]

The best money spent is for room treatment: Auralex / Sonex.