Does the old DENON X4500H sound better than the new X8500HA?

[Dragos_DreS]

Can anyone tell me why the DENON X4500H sounds better than the X8500HA?


So about 6 months ago I upgraded my home theater receiver from the X4500H to the X8500HA. I was actually very happy with the X4500H, especially with the sound quality that it outputted from my DALI Rubicon speakers. (exact speakers list down below)

Why did I upgrade? It’s an addiction…

So I setup the X8500HA thinking.. wow finally a receiver that should power the Rubicon 8 and how amazing this will sound.

But to my surprise, it gave me something that was better than before and at the same time it took away maybe my favorite part of watching movies.

What it gave me was a clear improvement in sound balance and sound effects. The sound effects are amazing in every movie that I play. Just for the sound effects alone I would say that the X8500HA is worth the upgrade.

What it took away though was the sound quality. I don’t know if you heard the difference between a Class A/B amp and a Class D amp. Me personally I can’t stand Class D amps, they are loud, too clean, too cold.. not something that I can even listen to for more than 5 mins.

Now the X8500HA does not sound like a Class D amp exactly but it is somewhere in that area. Where the music and certain tones are very clear but not that enjoyable to listen to.
The X4500H, if you watch a movie with a good soundtrack.. WOW! Emotionally the sound quality and the music, just connects with you on another level.
For example, a movie like Moulin Rouge or Elvis on the X8500HA is just a movie. On the X4500H it is an amazing concert. Big difference.


I don’t know how common it is to pair an AV receiver with Hi-Fi speakers. Maybe someone has made a similar experience?




Here is my setup:

DENON X8500HA
Panasonic DP-UB9004
Atoll IN300
Lumin mini U1

IsoTek EVO3

Dali Rubicon 8
Dali Rubicon 2
Dali Rubicon center
Dali Phantom E-80 InCeiling
Dali Sub E-12

 

[elvisizer]

?????? class C amps? those are generally used in rf transmitters, I can't recall ever seeing a class C audio amp. Do they exist?

 

[voodooless]

This can just be due to a badly done Audyssey setup. Maybe try it again and follow a decent guide, like this one:

Secrets of Audyssey – Guide

Do you want to make Audyssey sound amazing in your home cinema? Well, this is just the guide for you!

simplehomecinema.com

Also use the MultiEQ app to tweak your house curve.

And don’t ignore the possibility that it’s all in your head. I wouldn’t really expect the two devices to sound differently if setup the same way.

 

[Dragos_DreS]

?????? class C amps? those are generally used in rf transmitters, I can't recall ever seeing a class C audio amp. Do they exist?

You are right, my bad. I meant Class D not C. Also edited the post.

I tried a Class D amp a long time ago and it is really not for me.

Thank you for noticing my mistake!

 

[Chrispy]

I use a variety of amps, including class d, as well as several denons....I don't get particular differences with "sound quality".....more likely your expectations at work than particular differences.

 

[Dragos_DreS]

This can just be due to a badly done Audyssey setup. Maybe try it again and follow a decent guide, like this one:

Secrets of Audyssey – Guide

Do you want to make Audyssey sound amazing in your home cinema? Well, this is just the guide for you!

simplehomecinema.com

Also use the MultiEQ app to tweak your house curve.

And don’t ignore the possibility that it’s all in your head. I wouldn’t really expect the two devices to sound differently if setup the same way.

This is great info, thank you.

The link you sent me I will definitely try it and the MultiEQ app sounds even more interesting.

I know what you mean that it could be in my head but I have the X4500H in my Bedroom setup with some cheaper Dali speakers and there is a clear sounds signature difference.

 

[Dragos_DreS]

I use a variety of amps, including class d, as well as several denons....I don't get particular differences with "sound quality".....more likely your expectations at work than particular differences.

Yea maybe sounds quality isn’t the best way to describe it. More like sounds signature.

The one DENON has a better sounds signature with music and the other has a better sounds signature with sound effects.

 

[voodooless]

I know what you mean that it could be in my head but I have the X4500H in my Bedroom setup with some cheaper Dali speakers and there is a clear sounds signature difference.

That leads me to believe your room is the main factor here. Redoing the room correction properly may help quite a bit.

 

[Chrispy]

Yea maybe sounds quality isn’t the best way to describe it. More like sounds signature.

The one DENON has a better sounds signature with music and the other has a better sounds signature with sound effects.

No, that still doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

[Dragos_DreS]

That leads me to believe your room is the main factor here. Redoing the room correction properly may help quite a bit.

I will play around with it a bit more. Thanks!

 

[peng]

Yea maybe sounds quality isn’t the best way to describe it. More like sounds signature.

The one DENON has a better sounds signature with music and the other has a better sounds signature with sound effects.

So you compared the two on two different rooms and spaeakers? If that's the case, then the reason is clear, it is the different speakers in different rooms. If compared under the exact same conditions, they will sound the same, the 8500 may sound better only if yhe 4700 is push to it's clipping point.

 

[Chrispy]

This is great info, thank you.

The link you sent me I will definitely try it and the MultiEQ app sounds even more interesting.

I know what you mean that it could be in my head but I have the X4500H in my Bedroom setup with some cheaper Dali speakers and there is a clear sounds signature difference.

Different speakers in different rooms doesn't make for a comparison of electronics but rather the speakers/room....

 

[HarmonicTHD]

You could set them both back into your living room. Switch to Pure Direct (which disables all sound settings from Audyssey). Take a multimeter. Play the test tone. Adjust loudness so multimeter shows same value for each amp. Then ask your partner / friend to switch randomly or not at all between the two amps 10 times or more without you knowing what is what. Write it down and then compare afterwards. Could you do better than 5/10?

If not, then you can be certain the differences you are hearing are due to different sound settings and the different rooms. Which is much much more likely to begin with.

 

[Dragos_DreS]

I had the 4500 in my living room with the same speakers for 2 years. Once I upgraded the living room (using the same speakers) to the 8500, right away I could hear a sound signature difference. Every movie sounded very clear but the movie soundtracks wasn’t nearly as nice as it was on the 4500. It felt much colder and not as immersive.

The 8500 is a huge receiver and I cannot switch between the 2 easily in the living room.

Now I can only compare the 4500 in the bedroom with the 8500 in the living room and I can tell you that despite the cheaper speakers and the different room, the 4500 plays a more immersive sound signature.

 

[Dragos_DreS]

Who here owns the X8500HA and from what receiver did you upgrade?

Please don’t misunderstand me. The 8500 is a great receiver and I would highly recommend it over the 4500. I just miss the immersive movie soundtrack sound signature of the 4500.

 

[Chrispy]

Why are you discounting the different speakers and room effects? Much more than any minute differences in those particular avrs....

 

[Dragos_DreS]

Why are you discounting the different speakers and room effects? Much more than any minute differences in those particular avrs....

I am not, it is just the easiest comparison that i can do now. please read my reply just above yours.

 

[peng]

I am not, it is just the easiest comparison that i can do now. please read my reply just above yours.

I understand about having the 4500 in the living room for two years. Unfortunately, you cannot rely on your memory of the said sound signature when the listening comparison was hours apart, even minutes. I used to believe I could rely on such comparison tests too, but I learnt, and realized after years in this hobby. For such comparisons to be valid, such that the results are repeatable in multiple listening tests, aside from the need to do it blind, level matched etc., you also have to do such test truly AB in an instant.

Understandably, it is very difficult, if possible at all, to do such valid AB listening tests between even two simple stereo integrated amps, and it will be much more difficult to do it with two AVRs using movie tracks for such tests. It is even more difficult to do it in one's home.

In my opinion, that is the main reason why the debate on different amps (again, more so for avrs) has been a hot topic for years. It boils down to either you trust the known science, and formally/property conducted controlled tests such as Harman's, or you will believe in your own ears and brains (the Placebo, expectation, memory aspects..). If you believe and trust the latter then there is no debate because no one can convince you what you heard was due to other things than just the devices you were comparing and that if it was done in a controlled test your perception will change.

In your case, on the science part, it is very obvious that if done in a truly apples to apples comparison, the two units will sound the same when both are operating well below their output limit in direct mode with no dsp involved. If certain movies sound tracks are used, they may sound different enough because the 8500 does have different DSP processors, where as for music listening in direct mode, the two have the exact critical preamp/dac parts including the opamps, the 8500 has a better DAC chip but then it simply offer lower distortions while the 4500's dac chip already offer distortions below the threshold of human audibility. On the power amp side, both are very similar too, though not identical, the 8500 has a much stronger power supply and the output devices are also based on different transistors though have very similar specifications.

In the long run, you will likely get used to the "sound" of both systems, once you start focusing on just enjoying the music and movies and forget about the "sound signature" thing.

 

[Miker 1102]

Maybe want to re run the calibration. Try the app and mess with the curve as suggested. I used a couple of tutorial videos. It's not s perfect sound but music sound very good and the affects for atmos are cool.

 

[Beershaun]

Please ignore the mansplaining. The fact some folks seem to be ignoring is that you don't like the way the 8500 sounds and you want to change it.

As others have said the best way to dial in the sound you want is to use the Audessey app and set the frequency response curve that best gets you the sound you want. The nice thing about the app is you can experiment and try and create the signature you want. The challenge then is to figure out what frequency response curve best represents that.

I'd suggest picking a few songs that you know really well and represent the sound you are looking for and then try a couple different curves to see where it sounds the best. This will give you a way more empirically describe what you are lacking.