Does subwoofer add to music besides just bass? (Wharfedale 12.0 with sub vs 12.2 for nearfield)

[edwardh]

Hi,

This is my first post here after reading a lot posts here that has helped me learn about audios a lot.
I'm in the market for my first passive speakers set up for nearfield desktop use. (70x30inch desk)

Under my budget (Max around $1k usd for speakers + amp), I think I like the wharfedale diamond 12 series the best so far.
They don't sound harsh and I like the fact that they sound smooth w/ a pleasant mid to my naive ears.

I think I prefer the mids of wharfedale diamond 12. 2 to 12.0 slightly, it sounds more airy and full to me. (plz forgive my naive terminologies)
With that said, 12.2 is kinda big for my desk.

So the thought occurred to me is, what if I add a sub to 12.0?
Again, saying I'm ignorant about subwoofer is an understatement. From what I know, it adds more bass to the speaker.

1. But does it free up the speakers in any way to add more to its mids and highs?

(Can I get 12.0 + sub to sound similar in its mids + highs when compared to 12.2?)

Or is it all about bass?

I actually don't like a very deep bass as I'm easily nauseated by it sometimes.

2. Any other nearfield speaker for desktop in my budget (around $1k) that have similar sound signature and excels at low volume but with a relatively small footprint?


Thank you all.

 

[REK2575]

Hello @edwardh - Just my two cents, but I use a pair of Diamond 12.0s for a desktop/nearfield set up. I really like them! (They replaced a pair of PSB Alpha 3s that I did not like.) I have a similar desk to yours in terms of size. For me, given other things I need to have on my desk, the 12.0s are as big as I could go.

A subwoofer won't "add more bass to the speaker," if I understand you correctly. It's completely independent of your stereo speakers. If you have a 2.1 setup (L/R stereo plus subwoofer), the subwoofer output on your amplifier (make sure you have one! Or a spare pair of Pre Outs) will send the same signal to your sub as to your stereo speakers. The sub will produce the frequencies up to the upper limit of its Frequency Response -- or, as is more likely, up to the limit of the Low Pass Filter that you can set yourself. Your stereo speakers will still produce the frequencies down to the lower limit of their frequency response, unless you have a High Pass Filter or some sort of bass management on your amp (would probably have to be an AVR in that case). On its own, a subwoofer will not 'free up' your stereo speakers to produce only mids and highs. For that, you'd need to implement a High Pass Filter, which would in essence 'tell' the speakers, 'don't produce frequencies below this frequency'.

Do you need a subwoofer? Really depends on what you're after. I don't have a sub implemented with my desktop set-up. The 12.0s produce the bass they can produce, and, for nearfield use, they're adequate. You might try a pure stereo set up to start, and see how you like it first. If you wind up feeling like you're missing bass, then think about a sub.

EDIT -- think I need to make one correction. If you have an "LFE input" on your subwoofer, I think that may automatically limit the signal your sub receives from your preamp/integrated amp to a ceiling of 120Hz. But there are other experts around here who will correct me.

 

[abdo123]

Your idea is sound but you would need an amplifier capable of bass management, these are very rare or very expensive or both.

My suggestion is to buy one of the entry level 5.1 Denon AVRs for like 500$

or if you think you want a more modular approach (for future upgradability) then go with a power amplifier (no volume dial) and use the onboard headphone output of whatever music source you're planing to use. Invest further in a subwoofer, a digital signal processor for the future when you have more money.

 

[escape2]

1. But does it free up the speakers in any way to add more to its mids and highs?

It can, if you do bass management such as having a high pass filter that will prevent the low end frequencies from having to be played by the speakers, and thus reducing their distortion, which would make mids and highs sound cleaner. Depending on how loud you like to listen, distortion may or may not be an issue for you.

To do bass management, you need an amp/receiver capable of it or at least a subwoofer with a built-in high pass filter - most subs don't have it.

 

[Chrispy]

It's about gaining access to all audible frequencies to start. Most speakers don't do that, or do it well. Some can live without the lower octaves but personally I prefer to have them. Bass management tools would help with subs, but I'd always recommend use of subs myself (placement options due room modes particularly). I think some think the bass will be "overpowering" which is more about setup than anything....but mostly it will be a subtle difference, but missed when the sub is removed. IME.

 

[DVDdoug]

This gets a little complicated and it depends on your setup....

You generally need a crossover to route the bass to the sub and everything else to the main speakers. Normally that's a line level active crossover with a separate amp for the sub, or an active cub with a built-in amp.

AVRs have a crossover built-in.

Sometimes an active subwoofer has a crossover built-in but that means you have route the line-level signals through the sub. That's easy if you have a separate power amplifier for your stereo speakers, but otherwise not always easy.

Or sometimes the sub just has a low-pass filter to keep-out the non-bass frequencies but that means the bass also goes to the main speakers.

With a high-end surround setup ONLY the "point one" LFE (low frequency effects) goes to the subwoofer. The "regular" bass from the other channels goes to the respective speakers. When you play a stereo recording the subwoofer isn't used.

But since most people don't have big full-range surround speakers AVRs have "bass management" (a built-in crossover) that can optionally send ALL of the bass to the subwoofer.

If you don't have a subwoofer, you loose the "point one" channel. If you only have two speakers, the other surround channels are downmixed to stereo so you don't loose that audio.

 

[Chrispy]

This gets a little complicated and it depends on your setup....

You generally need a crossover to route the bass to the sub and everything else to the main speakers. Normally that's a line level active crossover with a separate amp for the sub, or an active cub with a built-in amp.

AVRs have a crossover built-in.

Sometimes an active subwoofer has a crossover built-in but that means you have route the line-level signals through the sub. That's easy if you have a separate power amplifier for your stereo speakers, but otherwise not always easy.

Or sometimes the sub just has a low-pass filter to keep-out the non-bass frequencies but that means the bass also goes to the main speakers.

With a high-end surround setup ONLY the "point one" LFE (low frequency effects) goes to the subwoofer. The "regular" bass from the other channels goes to the respective speakers. When you play a stereo recording the subwoofer isn't used.

But since most people don't have big full-range surround speakers AVRs have "bass management" (a built-in crossover) that can optionally send ALL of the bass to the subwoofer.

If you don't have a subwoofer, you loose the "point one" channel. If you only have two speakers, the other surround channels are downmixed to stereo so you don't loose that audio.

I would say most subs simply have a low pass filter, often mislabeled "crossover".

 

[Katji]

^^^Eggzactly. And too expensive, considering that you don't get the benefit of high-pass to main speakers, without added expense - buying something else as well.

 

[DWPress]

You have a few options if you want to go with a sub.

• Since you know you're going with the 12.0 observe the natural rolloff of the bass frequencies and get a sub capable of extending it. Most of them have a high pas filter you can use to dial in to where the mains start to knee downward in your room.
• Get a MiniDSP 2x4 device or similar to sum up your LFE and direct its output to the sub.
• Then there is the AVR option which will do bass management for you but the amplification end is often inferior.

The first 2 options allow use of a traditional 2ch amplifier, maybe a second amplifier to drive the sub if it is passive. The first 2 options would certainly benefit from measuring your listening space with a microphone to see where the room response is at. An AVR might have it's own measurement system as well depending on what you get.

I find tight, controlled bass actually helps with midrange clarity. Best bet is to get the speakers and set them up in your space and see if you find anything lacking. Go from there.

 

[edwardh]

Thank you so much for your advice, everyone. The consensus seems to be get the pair of speakers first and see if I feel like anything is lacking or not. If it is, potentially add a subwoofer with the option of implementing High Pass Filter down the road. I have a feeling that my inexperienced ears will love the sound of 12.0 without doing too much to it. Thank you again!

 

[edwardh]

Hello @edwardh - Just my two cents, but I use a pair of Diamond 12.0s for a desktop/nearfield set up. I really like them! (They replaced a pair of PSB Alpha 3s that I did not like.) I have a similar desk to yours in terms of size. For me, given other things I need to have on my desk, the 12.0s are as big as I could go.

Hey, that's great that you like 12.0 as your nearfield set up! It's helpful to know that you didn't like PSB alpha 3 because I was considering them at some point.

Do you feel like diamond 12.0 produces good sound at a relatively low volume at a close range? I've always wondered what makes certain speakers better at nearfield than others. Maybe it's the size of the woofer..?

 

[Willem]

Do try to listen to them in near field, however. On some otherwise nice speakers the drivers do not integrate that well in near field. I had Diamond 9.0s and they suffered from that even though I rather liked them at greater distance.
As for equalizing, in a desktop system with a computer this can be done with an REW equalization curve uploaded into the Equalizer Apo software for the PC.

 

[REK2575]

Hey, that's great that you like 12.0 as your nearfield set up! It's helpful to know that you didn't like PSB alpha 3 because I was considering them at some point.

Do you feel like diamond 12.0 produces good sound at a relatively low volume at a close range? I've always wondered what makes certain speakers better at nearfield than others. Maybe it's the size of the woofer..?

My sense of the 12.0s is strongly colored by my experience with the Alpha 3s. I was never really satisfied with the Alphas. They seemed a bit thin in general and ragged in upper registers (I listen to a lot of classical/opera/jazz, fwiw). I gave the 12.0s a shot, and was immediately impressed with the improvement in sound, which just seemed fuller, warmer. Admittedly a totally subjective response on my part. But I was not surprised when ASR's review of the Alpha 3s revealed a seriously flawed speaker. The main 'benefit' of the Alphas was their size. Ideal for desktop use. The 12.0s are bigger -- essentially as big as I'd be willing to go on a desk. I was also impressed by the build quality. The Wharfedales are nice speakers all around at this price-point. The Alphas seem rather cheaply manufactured and lack any heft. I do believe they are seriously overpriced for how they're made and what they deliver.

I'm powering the 12.0s with the SMSL AO200. It has plenty of juice to drive these for nearfield use. The volume meter on the SMSL goes up to 70 iirc; I keep the vol. in the 25-35 range and it sounds very nice indeed.

 

[escape2]

But I was not surprised when ASR's review of the Alpha 3s revealed a seriously flawed speaker. The main 'benefit' of the Alphas was their size. Ideal for desktop use. The 12.0s are bigger -- essentially as big as I'd be willing to go on a desk. I was also impressed by the build quality. The Wharfedales are nice speakers all around at this price-point. The Alphas seem rather cheaply manufactured and lack any heft. I do believe they are seriously overpriced for how they're made and what they deliver.

That's really disappointing to read about the new Alphas. I still own a pair of original Alpha B bookshelves and used them in a desktop setup for many many years. They were fantastic, smooth speakers without any hint of harshness. I have since replaced them with Kef Q150, mainly because I just wanted to try something different, but in my opinion there is nothing that the Q150 does better. And pre-EQ, the Alpha B actually had a smoother frequency response in my room. Post-EQ, there isn't much difference.

 

[Trdat]

1. But does it free up the speakers in any way to add more to its mids and highs?

Adding subs does reduce distortion in your mid woofer, logically speaking that is and it can definitely produce more SPL.

Or is it all about bass?

Yes, its all about bass. It's all about adding subs and integrating them well, which is not hard to do with a digital or active crossover.

For me adding subs will always be the best and simplest upgrade. I have two 15 inches for my mid woofer and I still have dual subs.