Does room correction improve flawed speakers too?

[ripmixburn]

I've been using ARC Genesis room correction for 2.1 stereo ever since it supported my PW Link streamer. I recently connected a pair of vintage Dynaco A25 speakers which have a noticeable dip in the midrange.

Probably too dumb a question for this audience, but can room correction discern between room modes and speaker response irregularity?

In other words, does room correction also improve flawed speakers too?

Certainly sounds like it based on what I'm hearing. Amazing how good speakers that are over 50 years old can sound like.

 

[Tangband]

I've been using ARC Genesis room correction for 2.1 stereo ever since it supported my PW Link streamer. I recently connected a pair of vintage Dynaco A25 speakers which have a noticeable dip in the midrange.

Probably too dumb a question for this audience, but can room correction discern between room modes and speaker response irregularity?

In other words, does room correction also improve flawed speakers too?

Certainly sounds like it based on what I'm hearing. Amazing how good speakers that are over 50 years old can sound like.

Edit: No - room corrections cant correct a loudspeaker with bad directivity above 300 Hz . And a room correction dsp cant correct for a substandard setup of the speakers in the room . In this case - sure, the sound will be a little better but not as good as optimal setup speakers in the room without any room correction at all.

A room correction dsp can be the icing on the cake If everything else is perfect regarding placement of the speakers and listening position. If this is done correctly, you gonna need much less dsp correction = better sound.

 

[Music1969]

In other words, does room correction also improve flawed speakers too?

It is possible to make a good improvement in on-axis performance (frequency response)

So that is probably what you've heard. So that's a valid improvement.

As per post above, it can't do much for off-axis

 

[staticV3]

can room correction discern between room modes and speaker response irregularity?

Room modes are high-Q resonances at 10-300Hz. Speaker response irregularities don't usually look like that.
If the specific room correction that you're using is sufficiently smart, then it can differentiate between the two and use different methods for each.

In other words, does room correction also improve flawed speakers too?

Room correction doesn't correct your room, it corrects your speakers' frequency response at your listening position in your room.
If your speakers' tweeter is 6dB too hot, then that'll manifest in the room response, which room correction software can measure and compensate for.
However, there are types of speaker irregularities like poor directivity, high distortion, cabinet resonances, port chuffing, that room correction cannot do anything about.

 

[DonH56]

Whilst I agree with @Tangband (et. al.) that room correction cannot do much about directivity (off-axis response) and some response errors, it can correct for frequency response deviations that are part of the speaker's design such as dips and peaks.

AFAIK room correction programs measure amplitude and phase using a microphone so has no way to discern the root cause of the deviations be it room modes, speakers, or dogs howling at the moon.

 

[Tangband]

Room modes are high-Q resonances at 10-300Hz. Speaker response irregularities don't usually look like that.
If the specific room correction that you're using is sufficiently smart, then it can differentiate between the two and use different methods for each.

Room correction doesn't correct your room, it corrects your speakers' frequency response at your listening position in your room.
If your speakers' tweeter is 6dB too hot, then that'll manifest in the room response, which room correction software can measure and compensate for.
However, there are types of speaker irregularities like poor directivity, high distortion, cabinet resonances, port chuffing, that room correction cannot do anything about.

Correct.
Room correction with measurements from listening position can only be done in a good way below about 300 Hz .
Correcting higher frequensys needs measurements near the loudspeaker .
One must also know the difference between room- resonanses ( can be corrected below 300 Hz ) and room reflections ( cant be corrected in a good way - its better to use diffusors or absorbers )

Roomcorrection done right can be good , it can also be terrible sounding.

 

[staticV3]

Room correction with measurements from listening position can only be done in a good way below about 300 Hz .

If I measure a broad treble peak from my MLP with a 90° DF mic, why shouldn't I apply an inverse EQ to get rid of it? Why would that be bad?

 

[abdo123]

Probably too dumb a question for this audience, but can room correction discern between room modes and speaker response irregularity?

Automated ones don't really do that. but in general yes you can correct the speaker response.

 

[Tangband]

If I measure a broad treble peak from my MLP with a 90° DF mic, why shouldn't I apply an inverse EQ to get rid of it? Why would that be bad?

You sure can If its below 300 Hz . Everything measured above about 300 Hz from listeningposition 3,5 meters away is not the direct sound from the speaker - its the room maybe 70 % and the direct sound from the speaker 30 % or less - in a normal room. Corrections above 300 Hz can be done with a measurement microphone about 70 cm away from the speaker, on axis , only one speaker on. The speaker must have good directivity otherwise such measurement corrections are useless.

Soundwaves also behave differently above and below the rooms transition frequency, ie around 250 Hz .

The Schroeder / Transition Frequency Explained

Brent Butterworth, a writer over at Sound & Vision, has written a very easy to understand explanation of what the 'Schroeder' frequency is. The Schroeder or 'transition' frequency is a critical concept to understand because it explains a lot about how sound behaves in rooms, how we measure /...

www.acousticfrontiers.com

To make everything even more complicated , the ear/brain and the microphone behave very different after 5 ms ( 1,7 meter ) delayed sound travel . The brains starts to select sounds, the mic takes up all the sound. The precedence effect.

Every measurement you do from listeningposition 3,5 meters away above 300 Hz tells lies , ie dont correlate with what the ear/brain hear.

 

[RayDunzl]

AFAIK room correction programs measure amplitude and phase using a microphone so has no way to discern the root cause of the deviations be it room modes, speakers, or dogs howling at the moon.

With a swept sine, the reflections would come at a later time than the direct sound.

Could they not separate the direct "on time" waves from the "delayed" reflections - which would occur at a lower frequency?

 

[preload]

No - the room correction cant correct a loudspeaker with bad directivity

Untrue for 2 reasons:
1) So-called "bad directivity" doesn't affect the bass and midbass ranges (approx <300Hz), which also happens to be the range where room correction is most effective and where the room modes are the biggest problem.
2) The room response of loudspeakers with directivity mismatch can still be corrected in the midrange/high frequencies, albeit with perhaps less predictability than, say a loudspeaker without a directivity mismatch.

It is a gross misinterpretation of the established evidence to state that a speaker with "bad directivity" cannot benefit from EQ in a room.

 

[abdo123]

With a swept sine, the reflections would come at a later time than the direct sound.

Could they not separate the direct "on time" waves from the "delayed" reflections - which would occur at a lower frequency?

You can, it's called frequency dependent windowing.

 

[Tangband]

Untrue for 2 reasons:
1) So-called "bad directivity" doesn't affect the bass and midbass ranges (approx <300Hz), which also happens to be the range where room correction is most effective and where the room modes are the biggest problem.
2) The room response of loudspeakers with directivity mismatch can still be corrected in the midrange/high frequencies, albeit with perhaps less predictability than, say a loudspeaker without a directivity mismatch.

It is a gross misinterpretation of the established evidence to state that a speaker with "bad directivity" cannot benefit from EQ in a room.

You are correct that corrections below 300 Hz can be done from listeningposition even If the loudspeaker have bad directivity.
Correcting a loudspeaker with bad directivity at higher frequencies with the microphone 70 cm from the speaker, on axis, can correct the direct on axis sound from the speaker but the sound 30 degree from the side of the speaker might then have wrong corrections . Dsp corrections always manipulate the direct sound from the speaker. Pick your poIson.

 

[DonH56]

With a swept sine, the reflections would come at a later time than the direct sound.

Could they not separate the direct "on time" waves from the "delayed" reflections - which would occur at a lower frequency?

True, if they capture the full frequency response and not just total signal magnitude during the sweep. I thought of it as sort of a simple tracking envelope receiver but it may well be more sophisticated; not something I have really pondered (or, dare I say, scrutinized ).. Or they could use a pulse or step signal to derive time and frequency response (my previous audio analysis SW started each sweep with an impulse'ish to provide a time reference for delay and phase).

 

[Sal1950]

I've been using ARC Genesis room correction for 2.1 stereo ever since it supported my PW Link streamer. I recently connected a pair of vintage Dynaco A25 speakers which have a noticeable dip in the midrange.

Wow, that's controversial subject!
I believe the best answer is "depends" LOL
If doing measurements at the MLP, the radiation pattern of the speaker will have a lot of influance on how well the final correction sounds.
Way too many if's, and's and but's for a short answer, a informative response would require a "white paper".

 

[Peluvius]

If it sounds better to you then I would have thought the simple answer is yes.

 

[curiouspeter]

It depends on how flawed the speakers are. All human creations are flawed to some extent.

Try using REW to visualize the response curve. You can manually derive some PEQ to counter the dip.

 

[thewas]

Below are some quotes from Toole:

It is essential to note that this is the room curve that would result from subjectively highly-rated loudspeakers. It is predictable from comprehensive anechoic data (the "early reflections curve in a spinorama). If you measure such a curve in your room, you can take credit for selecting excellent loudspeakers. If not, it is likely that your loudspeakers have frequency response or directivity irregularities. Equalization can address frequency response issues, but cannot fix directivity issues. Consider getting better loudspeakers. Equalizing flawed loudspeakers to match this room curve does not guarantee anything in terms of sound quality.

...

The Harman curve is not a "target" in the sense that any flawed loudspeaker can be equalized to match it and superb sound will be the reward. The most common flaws in loudspeakers are resonances (which frequently are not visible in room curves) and irregular directivity (which cannot be corrected by equalization). The only solution to both problems is better loudspeakers, the evidence of which is in comprehensive anechoic data.

...

Room curves do not correlate as well with listener preferences, except at bass frequencies, below the about 300 400 Hz transition frequency. Adjusting loudspeakers having different flaws to match full-bandwidth room curves of highly rated loudspeakers cannot yield the same high quality sound. This is especially true if narrow-band equalization is used above the transition frequency. This fact is not to be found in the advertising literature of "room EQ" products. Guess why?

...

E-r-r-r-r, have we not been saying that the small peaks and dips in room curves are likely to be caused by non-minimum phase phenomena, most likely caused by reflections and cannot be equalized. To two ears and a brain they are innocuous spaciousness, not coloration. It is attempts to "correct" such fluctuations that lead to degradation of well designed loudspeakers. So, above the transition frequency, small details in steady-state room curves should be ignored because unless you have comprehensive anechoic data on the loudspeakers you don't know what caused them.

More here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ut-room-curve-targets-room-eq-and-more.10950/