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Does Phase Distortion/Shift Matter in Audio? (no*)

Ismapics

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Mr. Mc Gowan makes little about the fat that he is in his 70's and his hearing as good as it can be is not 20-20K. Probably as no one is. He is not an Engeneer by trade and yes he may have many years selling audio products, but its not trained as such. So, I still see many that buy his products and I just don't get it. Why pay so much, when you can get same or better with less money,
 

Bullwinkle J Moose

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Does Phase Distortion/Shift Matter in Audio? (YES)


So what phase distortions are clearly audible in a horrible untreated room with lots of reflections when the music starts playing ?

Wiring one stereo speaker out of phase !

Listening to mono information on two or more speakers !

wiring up a crossover section out of phase / mismatched crossover sections / mismatched drivers !

Listening to horribly recorded music with phase problems that cannot be corrected at your end !
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And what phase distortions can be heard in a normal room when running test tones ?

Moving your head left to right relative to the speakers when playing tones at or above 1khz !

Left to Right to Left Combing effect when listening to monophonic sine sweeps through two or more speakers !
 
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aasearles

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In my experience with building passive crossovers, I've noticed phase shifts can result in variances (boost/cancelation) in frequency response of a multi-way system (relative phase to different drivers). This can be compensated for by adjusting the crossover points, or using other methods to flatten out the FR, but those phase shifts still remain.
Of course phase is an important thing in designing crossovers.
Question: is physically time-aligning of speaker drivers' voice coils done more or less for the same reason? - for flatter frequency response? - or are there other advantages to having drivers be positioned in correct relative phase?
 

dc655321

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You can do your own, or just use headphones which are linear phase by default (single driver).

I may be misunderstanding, but in what sense is a single driver (headphones or not) linear phase?
 

mjvbl

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Pertaining to speaker crossovers, I was just browsing forum threads to read about the Danley Synergy crossover.
Many of those speakers show a gradual phase shift from low to high frequencies, a continuously downward sloping line as opposed to the phase wrap which would be the case with a textbook LR4 crossover. (I'm more just making a point about the difference vs. something more common, but don't actually know how this translates to sound quality differences.)

In one thread I was reading a presentation by David Griesinger was referred to: "What is Clarity and how can it be Measured?"
http://www.davidgriesinger.com/ICA2013/What is Clarity4.pptx

It's not about speakers but acoustic spaces but as I understand slide 22 is essentially about waveform fidelity of sounds (that include harmonics) and good waveform fidelity would need something like a linear phase crossover.

What is Clarity4.pptx - Slide 22

- Most creatures communicate with harmonics of pitched tones because it increases the signal to noise ratio by 12dB or more.
- But the increase in S/N and the ability to separate sounds depend on the phase alignment of the upper harmonics, and these phases are altered by acoustics.
- When phases are preserved at the onsets of sounds we get CLARITY – otherwise we get MUD. [...]
 

diddley

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Amir, the doctor Ruth of audio information:)
Folklore that was a nice description of paul's rambling.
Thanks once again for a informative video.
 

JoostE

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I was very clear in the video on this. That phase can matter if you understand the context of the discussion, e.g. sub versus main blending, etc. The purpose of video was specific to Paul's video which had nothing to do with this.

I wouldn't call it "very clear", but you did point it out all the way at the end. If anything, the title is objectively false then, but I understand you have to play the clickbait battle to get in favor of the YouTube algorithm gods.
 

DavidMcRoy

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Thanks for this. When I was starting out in a professional career in broadcast audio production three decades ago, I would come across what were referred to at the time as “underground audio publications,” most with a decidedly subjectivist bent. When the reviewers wandered into attempts at technical explanations for things they were hearing or were imagining they were hearing, this allegation of the audibility of phase shift within the context of a single channel of audio was a common go-to. I would wonder, “why can’t I hear what’s they’re talking about?” As I absorbed knowledge from more scholarly sources, I put together what was going on: the reviewers were basing their conclusions not on the way audio and hearing work, but rather on the way they ”thought” things work. The phenomenon extends far beyond audio equipment reviewing, into quack medicine, essential oils and the anti-MGO movement, all based on nonsense. Having majored in speech communication in college (to replace the Louisiana Creole French dialect of American English I got from my Mom,) I also had some courses in speech therapy and audiology that helped to explain away some of the golden ear reviewers’ misassessments of reality. I realize that sometimes reviewers really do hear an existing phenomenon, but ought to stop short of explaining the cause based on hearsay or nonsense. I can’t let this topic pass without stating a global caution on subjective testing of any audio phenomena: the placebo effect is powerful in hearing and listening, and believe me I’ve snowed myself into thinking I was hearing things that weren’t really there, as verified by learning that for example the signal path wasn’t configured exactly as I had assumed, on countless occasions.
 
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Does Phase Distortion/Shift Matter in Audio? (YES)


So what phase distortions are clearly audible in a horrible untreated room with lots of reflections when the music starts playing ?

Wiring one stereo speaker out of phase !

Listening to mono information on two or more speakers !

wiring up a crossover section out of phase / mismatched crossover sections / mismatched drivers !

Listening to horribly recorded music with phase problems that cannot be corrected at your end !
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And what phase distortions can be heard in a normal room when running test tones ?

Moving your head left to right relative to the speakers when playing tones at or above 1khz !

Left to Right to Left Combing effect when listening to monophonic sine sweeps through two or more speakers !

I think we understand phase in a multi-way speaker matters. I think that was not the topic.
 

Ingenieur

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What is the definition of the phase shift being discussed ?
A room reflection arriving delayed and attenuated?

An electrical shift like a filter (or any reactive load) induces, ie, the difference between V and I?
For R 0 deg, for C or L +90 or - 90 deg using I as the reference.

Or the phasing of say a sub and mains?

The first can only be addressed by room acoustics. If RT60 time is within range, moot.

The second, no impact at all.
Assume a load of 8/30 degree
V = 8/0 degree V
I = 1/-30 degree A
S = 8/0 x conjugate(1/-30) = 8/30 VA
P = 6.9 W
Q = 4 VAr
power factor 87%

Only P does work, moves air, there is no resultant phase shift.

third, obviously they must be phased, but would someone know if not compared?
Doubt it.
 
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audio2design

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With the large number of FIR taps required (65,536 or even 131,072 taps) for excess phase correction at low frequencies results in latency, typically around 3/4 of a second. This is one of the reasons why you see other DSP/DRC software use IIR filters at low frequencies so they don't have to deal with the latency issue, especially if the application of DRC is for movies where lip synch is the issue. However, players like JRiver can account for that and delay the video by the calculated FIR delay. The other reason that you don't see FIR filtering at low frequencies in h/w devices is that the DSP chips aboard have a real limitation in the number of FIR filter taps available. Typically 1024 or 2048 taps per channel which translates from a FIR filtering perspective to having 2 bands or eq below 100 Hz. Not very effective, especially where you need it the most.

Limitations in a DSP would be a factor of processing power as you can always add external memory to support the tap length. For that many taps, an FPGA is typically more cost effective.

However, you are approaching this the wrong way IMO, at least with the goal of providing a sufficiently effective solution. It would take much less processing power to loss pass in the digital domain, decimate to a lower but sufficient sampling rate (would not need to be that high), compensate for excess phase, then upsample and reconstruct. More complex, but the amount of math would be significantly less.
 

RayDunzl

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My hybrid electrostats throw a remarkably flat or consistent phase in-room to the listening position at 10 feet.

The panel crosses to the dynamic woofer at 180Hz, so some discontinuity starts around that frequency.

This is both speakers playing, with no DSP active, and no trickery (windowing, whatever) with REW.


1623121401961.png


Add DSP and some of the delay (?) in the bass is reduced


1623121447220.png
 

Thomas_A

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If there is any serious interest I could provide convolution kernels with different phase distortions so everybody can make their own tests, ABX's or whatever, with any music material. Again, preferably on a system that already is linear phase.

I don't think it "needs" ABX. With headphones the difference can be quite evident. Below a bandlimited 123 Hz sawtooth wave playing for 1s and then flipped 1s.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qnbbjwygr05dff5/123 Hz sawtooth.wav?dl=0
 

F1308

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Thank you.
Please, HEDD linearizer is useless then...?
Or are we not talking about the same thing...?

Yes, it is quite another point...

You hear a single frequency wave...
You hear unmatched train of same frequency waves coming from different sources...

Excuses for responding myself.
 
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GWolfman

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This guy should take some college courses or something (not speaking of EE {electrical engineering} specifically)
 

Mauro

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A viewer of my videos and member he suggested that I do a video commenting on a video that Paul McGown did on audibility of phase shifts. Here is Paul's video which was really about a different question (why we need wideband amplifiers) but turned it into phase being an audible problem:


Here is my answer to him:


Of course phase is an important electrical and acoustic thing and has relevance in countless situations. It is just that it should not be used to create myths and fear in audiophiles with respect to audibility in the context Paul and others are using.

This is a reference Sean Olive pointed me to when I asked him about audibility of group delays:
https://asa.scitation.org/doi/abs/10.1121/1.381841

From Blauert's study on group delay".. Psychoacoustical tests show further that the measured distortions can approach the magnitude of the threshold of perceptibility, but in most cases will be well below this value.."
 
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