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Does Over Exceeded Amplifier Volume Damage Speaker?

Larry B. Larabee

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There's nothing complicated about this. Your amp should have clipping indicators. If it doesn't then the manufacturer is negligent. If you severely overdrive the amp the tweeters could suffer damage. This happens when the distortion is so high you are forced to turn the volume down so realistically I wouldn't worry about it.

Also, if you don't know what distortion is, when you play the volume over the limits of the amp's linear output and you hear a sound like a snare drum coming from your speakers it's just the woofer bottoming out. Although, I suspect that none of these things has actually happened to you, have they?
 
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Cybertech119

Cybertech119

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There's nothing complicated about this. Your amp should have clipping indicators. If it doesn't then the manufacturer is negligent. If you severely overdrive the amp the tweeters could suffer damage. This happens when the distortion is so high you are forced to turn the volume down so realistically I wouldn't worry about it.

Also, if you don't know what distortion is, when you play the volume over the limits of the amp's linear output and you hear a sound like a snare drum coming from your speakers it's just the woofer bottoming out. Although, I suspect that none of these things has actually happened to you, have they?
You are right.. it happens on my previous Home theater. It sounds like a snare drum and vibrate the woofer, then I reduce the volume to maintain balance sounding
 

iMickey503

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.....Before I:
abandon-thread.gif


Please watch and listen to this Video by my man Barevids.

If you JUST want to hear WHAT it sounds like? The video starts at 5:33 seconds and you get to see it on the o sccope and hear it at teh same time.
HERE:
http://rftech.custhelp.com/app/answ...n.-set-up-procedure-to-adjust-amplifier-gains
Here are the files you need.
1642233627343.png

(Click on Picture / hotlink above to take you to Rockford's Website)


Also, as much as I respect BareVids? He may be right about me being deaf and most people can't hear distortion.
1642234048161.png


I get why you are worried. I have magic'ed smoked MORE tweeters then Philip Morris. It can be hard to hear in some music. And often? They do fail without to much warning. (Dynaudio tweeters have a bad knack for mechanical failure for example)

And on this very part of the song.

Right after about 3.30 seconds... Let me show you what I have left afterwords..
And this is a SMALL sampling of maybe 10% of how many I have blown.


Do this and you can't go wrong dude.
 

Trell

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Hi guys, Now I got the amp and the speakers.
The seller advise I shouldn’t turn all the volume, He said 70% is enough so the Amp and the speakers would last long.

MY QUESTION IS: What If I host a party that needed to increase the maximum volume??

Add passive attenuators if your preamp does not have a configurable volume limit.
 

killdozzer

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Everybody has probably read this jbl paper on the subject but I’ll put it out there.
Danger, Low Power: The Drawbacks of Using Power Amplifiers that are Too Small – A JBL Professional Technical Note
Since no one is disputing that this can happen, perhaps your link is ever so slightly less helpful then you might've expected (and mostly covered in what I linked from Audioholics).

If you're trying to assert that there's 10-15% truth to the myth, I ask you, isn't there that much to every myth?

What remains is - although it can happen:
- it's not inaudible
- it's not the most common cause
- it doesn't fry the speaker but tweeter
- weak amp is not a bigger threat than a too strong amp

I insist on this since spreading the myth can be dangerous. People might do damage thinking they are safe because of rumors like these.

One should just say as it is; you can damage a tweeter with a weak amp, but it's more likely you'll kill the speaker with a strong amp if not careful.
 

RobL

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Since no one is disputing that this can happen, perhaps your link is ever so slightly less helpful then you might've expected (and mostly covered in what I linked from Audioholics).

If you're trying to assert that there's 10-15% truth to the myth, I ask you, isn't there that much to every myth?

What remains is - although it can happen:
- it's not inaudible
- it's not the most common cause
- it doesn't fry the speaker but tweeter
- weak amp is not a bigger threat than a too strong amp

I insist on this since spreading the myth can be dangerous. People might do damage thinking they are safe because of rumors like these.

One should just say as it is; you can damage a tweeter with a weak amp, but it's more likely you'll kill the speaker with a strong amp if not careful.
Not really trying to make an argument one way or another but how many people have amps large enough to fry a speaker without distorting…a few percent of users I’d bet. That would make the majority of listeners in the “under-powered” camp. As was noted in the JBL paper, when the rise in distortion begins the added distortion at first actually gives the impression of “loudness”. I bet the majority of tweeter failures happen with underpowered equipment, but whatever. Amir often subjectively punishes test speakers with his 1000w mono-blocks…no meltdowns that I’m aware of yet.
 

Trell

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Not really trying to make an argument one way or another but how many people have amps large enough to fry a speaker without distorting…a few percent of users I’d bet.

More than a few speakers have met an untimely end at parties. :D
 

RobL

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More than a few speakers have met an untimely end at parties. :D
Years ago I bought a pair of Nikko speakers that obviously weren’t functioning properly. Turned out the previous owner used them for DJ service and had them connected to a monster amp. Literally blew the electrolytics in the crossover up. Drivers were fine!
 

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JRS

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Audiophiles and HiFi aficionados seriously underestimate how powerful their systems really are. They are constantly tweaking the volume a tiny bit this way and that, thinking they are on the edge, and yet, they are mostly about 10-20% of what their gear is capable of.

Probably a good thing, but it is fun to show people what a serious HiFi system is capable of- often one they have had for years and run on 'idle'.
That's seems to be the case with salesmen as well. I watch their discomfort level rise as I keep indicating louder, louder, louder, and then stop when the levels are just shy of uncomfortably loud. The fear is replaced with a smile as they begin to understand that we are still comfortably within the speaker's capabilities, and more than once I'll have a bunch of other sales folk in there listening with us--no one else seems to listen to SRV's version of Tin Pan Alley at shock volumes as a assay of SQ, or are even familiar with the tune.

(I also remember as a younger man listening to an unattended system back in the day when the practice was not uncommon and the pungent smell of an overheated board began to fill the room. Quickly turned it down and scurried out before I was discovered. I doubt any lasting damage was done, but taught me the need to make it a stepwise procedure.
 

NTK

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Everybody has probably read this jbl paper on the subject but I’ll put it out there.
Danger, Low Power: The Drawbacks of Using Power Amplifiers that are Too Small – A JBL Professional Technical Note
Since no one is disputing that this can happen ...
There are people who disagree with the notion that "Power Doesn't Kill Speakers, Distortion Does".
 

JRS

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Lol.. Speakers should work efficiently. It must be able to serve it’s purpose.
Now you tell me.

In college, I had some AR LST's that were the life of dorm and house parties, until they weren't. And my own fault for being less "present" shall we say than needed. By 20 I had a small graveyard of those tweeters, and as was the custom back then, the first one or (set) was on the house. Those little suckers were $25 per even in the mid-seventies. Replacing three at a time taught me an important lesson. Ah, yes the school of hard knocks.
 

RobL

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There are people who disagree with the notion that "Power Doesn't Kill Speakers, Distortion Does".
Interesting read, made me think when he wrote this:
If this particular piece of nonsense were true, no guitarist would be able to finish a set without blowing up the speakers. Guitar amps are regularly (and for years on end) operated well into clipping (i.e. distortion) and the speakers are perfectly happy.
Yeah that’s true! I’ve never heard of a guitar amp blowing a tweeter! Oh wait…
 

killdozzer

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There are people who disagree with the notion that "Power Doesn't Kill Speakers, Distortion Does".
I'll be honest and say I'm missing the point here. From your link and your short comment I can only conclude we agree. If that's the case and I'm not mistaken, I thank you for the link.
My whole point was that too much power ranks No1 when it comes to amp killing speakers (if no faults are detected). And I wouldn't let it go because if we help spread this myth that strong amps are safe, we might cause some damage to other people's gear (and that's honestly my only reason).

That said, I would avoid equating distortion as an effect in playing an instrument and distortion from clipping amp in audio reproduction. I'll tell you why:
This risks people thinking distortion is not a big deal and distorting audio amp is just like distortion as an effect in playing an instrument and they don't need to do anything when they hear a weak amp distorting and they could just carry on blasting it. I think that article you linked could be written even better.

When distortion is an effect (like the fuzz pedal the article mentions) you can have a very quiet reproduction (low SPL) of the distorted sound, which would imply you're creating the distortion effect with no actual stress on an amp or speakers. See what I'm getting at?

- When a weak amp creates distortions, it's linked with pushing that amp over its limits.
- When distortion is just a sound effect, your amp or speakers don't need to be stressed at all.

It is generally a good idea to keep creation of music separated from the reproduction of music. Not all rules of the two are interchangeable.
 

NTK

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I'll be honest and say I'm missing the point here. From your link and your short comment I can only conclude we agree. If that's the case and I'm not mistaken, I thank you for the link.
My whole point was that too much power ranks No1 when it comes to amp killing speakers (if no faults are detected). And I wouldn't let it go because if we help spread this myth that strong amps are safe, we might cause some damage to other people's gear (and that's honestly my only reason).

That said, I would avoid equating distortion as an effect in playing an instrument and distortion from clipping amp in audio reproduction. I'll tell you why:
This risks people thinking distortion is not a big deal and distorting audio amp is just like distortion as an effect in playing an instrument and they don't need to do anything when they hear a weak amp distorting and they could just carry on blasting it. I think that article you linked could be written even better.

When distortion is an effect (like the fuzz pedal the article mentions) you can have a very quiet reproduction (low SPL) of the distorted sound, which would imply you're creating the distortion effect with no actual stress on an amp or speakers. See what I'm getting at?

- When a weak amp creates distortions, it's linked with pushing that amp over its limits.
- When distortion is just a sound effect, your amp or speakers don't need to be stressed at all.

It is generally a good idea to keep creation of music separated from the reproduction of music. Not all rules of the two are interchangeable.
I am not disagreeing with you with the myth that stronger amps are "safer". I'm responding to your apparent agreement with the JBL tech note that suggests matching speakers with amps that have output power twice that of the speaker rating. JBL claims clipping from underpowered amp can cause damages to tweeters which would otherwise be avoidable with a beefier amp. That's the myth that the Elliott Sound's article debunks.

I used to believe in it too since it sounded so plausible. It is often talked about and (seemingly) reputable companies such as JBL publishes technotes publicizing it. I myself had post telling others about it until I got corrected. (My post #92 in 2020, got corrected in post #95, reminded me I haven't given the poster a "like".)

The theory sounded reasonable. Clipping creates high order harmonics, so clipping must put a lot of stress on tweeters. This actually depends on what the clipping behavior of the amp is. If the amp goes into oscillations or does other nasty things during clipping, sure. But what if the amp clips cleanly and recovers cleaning. So, I decided to run some numbers myself.

First case I simulated is a single 100 Hz tone. The original signal has an amplitude peak of 1 and the clipped signal clipped at 0.707, meaning that the clipping amp can output 1/2 the power of the unclipped amp. The (hard, clean, symmetric) clipping sprayed a bunch of (odd) harmonics to the higher frequencies. But when you look the FFT at 1 decade (10x) above, the amplitude of the spikes at less than 1% of the fundamental, meaning very very little power is sent to the tweeter.
1tone.png

Second case I added a 0.5 amplitude 2 kHz tone. After clipping amplitude of the 2 kHz tone actually decreased because of insufficient amp power. There are distortion products for sure, but the energy they add is small by comparison. The power to the tweeter is therefore significantly less than if the amp doesn't clip, which blew JBL's theory that beefier amp is "safer" (at least in this case).
2tones.png

The first lesson to me is that in audio there is a lot of bunk out there and nothing can be taken for granted. Second lesson is to only get amps with good clipping behavior. That's why I advocate measuring how amps clip into real loads.
 

mhardy6647

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JBL's earlier position on low power being dangerous (for tweeters) was, if memory serves, eventually if quietly "taken back" by them over the course of three-ish decades. I believe that they ceased to espouse their earlier claim before they became a Harmon brand name -- but... no... I cannot document that "offhand".
 

RayDunzl

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